Evolution
#87
The Catholic Thinker Wrote:A majority of the Fathers might have believed that the sun went around the earth and mentioned such in their homilies: this does not mean it is an infallible Church teaching, much less any Church teaching: it is nothing but an incidental statement about nature given the knowledge at the time.  I am pretty sure that I could find a collection of quotes from the Fathers speaking of the sun going around the Earth: who here is a geocentrist?  Who will become one if I produce the quotes?

How many sermons from the Fathers taught that it was an article of faith to believe in 24-hour creation days?

...

I agree that the question of 24-hour creation days is closer to the faith than, say, Scripture verses (or opinions of the Fathers) that appear to support geocentrism, but the two are not terribly far apart.  By this I mean that all teachings of not only faith and morals, but the spirit of the account as well, are just as completely intact if we allow ourselves to think that God is not bound by our concept of a day (before earth was even rotating and the concept of 24-hour day could exist).

So you're saying that a consensus of the Church Fathers (whether unanimous consent or the 'moral unanimity' of a substantial majority) only becomes infallible Church teaching if it  pertains to bedrock matters of faith -- in other words, the Fathers tell us how to go to Heaven but not how the heavens go?

This would seem to be the position of Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus:

... we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation." Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers -- as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us -- "went by what sensibly appeared," or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.

The unshrinking defense of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith -- what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are," according to the saying of St. Thomas.


The Catholic Thinker Wrote:I am sorry to have to say this but this sort of thing makes Christians the laughingstock of the educated world.

It might seem so, given that modern science tells us that an old Earth and heliocentrism are indisputable facts.  But modern science also tells us that unborn children are just blobs of cells, the rational intellect is just the physical interaction of brain molecules, and virgins just don't get pregnant while remaining virgins.  Not to mention that the physical universe can somehow be the cause of its own existence.  To be sure, these latter claims  pose no problem for the Christian because the Church has spoken to the contrary -- the Christian knows that in these cases 'science' must be trespassing outside its legitimate area of competence or just plain wrong.  But to the "educated world", YEC or geocentrism are no more laughable than our Lady's perpetual virginity or transubstantiation.

Reply


Messages In This Thread
Evolution - by mirarivos - 10-21-2010, 10:21 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-21-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-21-2010, 09:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-21-2010, 09:29 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-21-2010, 09:36 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-21-2010, 09:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-22-2010, 10:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-22-2010, 10:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 12:27 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 04:33 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-23-2010, 07:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:36 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:41 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:50 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:52 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:20 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:28 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:40 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 12:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 12:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-23-2010, 04:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 05:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-23-2010, 06:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 07:29 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-23-2010, 11:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-24-2010, 08:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-25-2010, 09:10 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by ggreg - 10-26-2010, 06:18 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-26-2010, 08:15 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-26-2010, 09:27 AM
Re: Evolution - by SaintSebastian - 10-26-2010, 10:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by SaintSebastian - 10-26-2010, 11:04 AM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 10-28-2010, 08:08 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-28-2010, 09:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 09:39 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 09:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-28-2010, 09:50 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 10:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-28-2010, 10:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 10:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-29-2010, 08:09 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-29-2010, 03:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-29-2010, 05:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-29-2010, 05:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-29-2010, 08:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-29-2010, 09:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 06:14 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 08:48 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:21 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 09:30 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 09:42 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-30-2010, 09:45 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:55 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 10:12 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-30-2010, 11:45 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 12:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 04:41 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 04:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 04:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 05:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 05:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 07:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:31 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 06:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 06:44 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-31-2010, 08:56 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 09:39 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-31-2010, 10:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:43 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-31-2010, 01:27 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 02:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 05:34 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-31-2010, 05:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-31-2010, 05:36 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 05:50 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-01-2010, 04:58 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 05:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-01-2010, 05:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 11:38 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-02-2010, 03:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 11-02-2010, 07:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 11-02-2010, 08:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-02-2010, 09:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 11-02-2010, 09:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 01:05 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 11-03-2010, 08:00 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 11-03-2010, 03:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 04:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-03-2010, 06:04 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 06:49 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-03-2010, 08:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 11-05-2010, 05:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by Mixolydian - 11-20-2010, 01:06 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-20-2010, 11:06 PM
Re: Evolution - by Mixolydian - 11-21-2010, 03:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 11-30-2010, 09:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 11-30-2010, 09:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-01-2010, 10:50 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-01-2010, 06:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 12-01-2010, 09:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 12-22-2010, 07:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-22-2010, 07:27 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-22-2010, 08:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-22-2010, 10:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 12-22-2010, 10:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-23-2010, 09:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-23-2010, 09:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-23-2010, 10:53 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-23-2010, 10:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-23-2010, 11:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by dnu - 12-24-2010, 01:38 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-24-2010, 01:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by sheep101 - 12-24-2010, 06:01 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-24-2010, 11:35 AM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 12-24-2010, 11:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-25-2010, 07:24 AM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-25-2010, 03:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-26-2010, 08:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-26-2010, 08:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by faith3faith - 12-26-2010, 10:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-26-2010, 11:07 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 12-26-2010, 06:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-27-2010, 07:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by icecream - 12-27-2010, 07:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-27-2010, 03:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-28-2010, 03:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-28-2010, 06:04 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by icecream - 12-28-2010, 06:31 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-28-2010, 06:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-28-2010, 06:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-28-2010, 10:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 10:58 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:15 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:17 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:18 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:18 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-29-2010, 07:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-29-2010, 07:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-29-2010, 01:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by faith3faith - 12-29-2010, 01:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-29-2010, 03:20 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 12-29-2010, 04:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-29-2010, 04:49 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-29-2010, 11:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-30-2010, 12:08 AM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-30-2010, 01:56 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 07:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 03:54 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-30-2010, 04:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 05:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:34 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-30-2010, 05:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 12-30-2010, 07:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 07:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 12:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 12-31-2010, 05:06 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-31-2010, 08:01 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 08:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 09:07 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 08:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 08:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 08:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 08:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by violet - 12-31-2010, 08:57 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 09:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by violet - 12-31-2010, 09:20 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 09:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 09:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 07:59 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 01-01-2011, 08:42 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 09:15 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 01-01-2011, 12:51 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 02:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by justlurking - 01-01-2011, 05:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 06:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by Christus Imperat - 01-01-2011, 07:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 01-02-2011, 04:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-02-2011, 06:35 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-02-2011, 06:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by cathkath - 01-02-2011, 07:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by CrusaderKing - 01-02-2011, 09:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 01-02-2011, 11:53 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 01-03-2011, 03:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-04-2011, 05:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 01-04-2011, 11:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-05-2011, 12:57 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-06-2011, 12:49 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 01-06-2011, 01:37 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-06-2011, 01:46 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 01-06-2011, 11:33 AM
Re: Evolution - by cherylfoster - 01-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 01-16-2011, 03:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by Metatron - 01-19-2011, 04:47 AM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 02-19-2011, 02:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-04-2011, 06:11 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 06:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 06:24 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 06:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 06:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 06:38 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 07:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 07:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 07:24 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 08:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by twinc - 04-05-2011, 01:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by twinc - 04-05-2011, 01:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-05-2011, 03:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by catholicSD - 04-05-2011, 05:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by Bminor Mass - 04-09-2011, 08:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by mikemac - 04-15-2011, 03:12 AM
Re: Evolution - by ggreg - 04-15-2011, 09:59 AM
Re: Evolution - by Bminor Mass - 04-16-2011, 11:31 AM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-21-2011, 11:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by UnamSanctam - 04-21-2011, 12:00 PM



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)