Evolution
#88
(10-31-2010, 01:27 PM)Cambrensis Wrote: So you're saying that a consensus of the Church Fathers (whether unanimous consent or the 'moral unanimity' of a substantial majority) only becomes infallible Church teaching if it  pertains to bedrock matters of faith -- in other words, the Fathers tell us how to go to Heaven but not how the heavens go?

This would seem to be the position of Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus:

... we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation." Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers -- as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us -- "went by what sensibly appeared," or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.

The unshrinking defense of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith -- what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are," according to the saying of St. Thomas.

Thanks for the quote.  I was indeed saying that the Fathers are not infallible unless unanimous, and furthermore I do not believe that a majority of them intended to put for ANY teaching of the faith per 24-hour creation days.  Furthermore, and more importantly, the Church cannot contradict Herself, and she has already declared that a believe in literal 24-hour creation "days" is *not* necessary.


Quote:It might seem so, given that modern science tells us that an old Earth and heliocentrism are indisputable facts.  But modern science also tells us that unborn children are just blobs of cells, the rational intellect is just the physical interaction of brain molecules, and virgins just don't get pregnant while remaining virgins.  Not to mention that the physical universe can somehow be the cause of its own existence.  To be sure, these latter claims  pose no problem for the Christian because the Church has spoken to the contrary -- the Christian knows that in these cases 'science' must be trespassing outside its legitimate area of competence or just plain wrong.  But to the "educated world", YEC or geocentrism are no more laughable than our Lady's perpetual virginity or transubstantiation.

Modern science does not tell us any of what you said regarding the unborn, the intellect, or a causeless universe: what you are referring to are *(mis)interpretations* of scientific data and/or scientists masquerading as philosophers.

The unborn: science is very much on the side of the pro-life cause here.  What science teaches us is at the moment of conception a new individual of the human species is created - period.  At this point we have a unique genetic individual, and at no other point is there such a qualitative change.  Now, the knowledge of the infusion of the soul that comes from faith also plays a part in our position, of course, but by no means can true natural science be said to be *against* it.  (And there is at least one large atheist pro-life org, by the way.)

As far as the intellect goes, the prevailing *opinion* is that "the mind is the brain" - this is merely a direct consequence of the *philosophy* of materialism that now holds sway over society.  Materialism teaches that the physical is all there is - so by definition there is no such thing as a "mind" outside of the brain.  This philosophy is nothing but an article of "faith" on the part of its adherent, and fortunately for us there is *lots* of evidence that it is false. 

Please see this messy back-and-forth for now if you are interested, taken from a debate I had with someone on CAF last year:

http://www.catholicthinker.net/mind-matter/

I have a lot more material to clean up and post at some time.  Now I have a bit of motivation.  Rest assured that when the evidence is produced the teaching that the mind is nothing but an "emergent" property of the brain will seem preposterous to an honest thinker.

Causeless creation: almost a contradiction in terms, isn't it?  It's got nothing to do with science, which by definition only concerns itself with the results of creation.  This is a good read:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/sep/10090704.html

As for the Virgin Birth, science tells us that it is not naturally possible, and science it right: it was a miracle.  That is the definition of the miraculous: a suspension of the natural order.  The Laws of the universe are God's Laws and can be superseded for His purposes.  Or, He perhaps works within them in a way we cannot understand.  (Quantum mechanics offers a possible hypothesis here but I am not going to go there now.)

Pitting science against faith is nonsensical and a dangerous mode of thinking.  As the Church teaches, they can never contradict each other, for they are both Truth; the natural sciences are just explanations of the physical creation.

I've got to get a one year-old into a costume now.  More later.
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Messages In This Thread
Evolution - by mirarivos - 10-21-2010, 10:21 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-21-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-21-2010, 09:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-21-2010, 09:29 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-21-2010, 09:36 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-21-2010, 09:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-22-2010, 10:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-22-2010, 10:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 12:27 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 04:33 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-23-2010, 07:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:36 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:41 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:50 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 10:52 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 10:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:20 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:28 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 11:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:40 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 11:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 12:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-23-2010, 12:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-23-2010, 04:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 05:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-23-2010, 06:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-23-2010, 07:29 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-23-2010, 11:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-24-2010, 08:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-25-2010, 09:10 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-25-2010, 09:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by ggreg - 10-26-2010, 06:18 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-26-2010, 08:15 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-26-2010, 09:27 AM
Re: Evolution - by SaintSebastian - 10-26-2010, 10:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by SaintSebastian - 10-26-2010, 11:04 AM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 10-28-2010, 08:08 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-28-2010, 09:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 09:39 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 09:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-28-2010, 09:50 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 10:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-28-2010, 10:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-28-2010, 10:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-29-2010, 08:09 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-29-2010, 03:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-29-2010, 05:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-29-2010, 05:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-29-2010, 08:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-29-2010, 09:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 06:14 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 08:48 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:21 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 09:30 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 09:42 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-30-2010, 09:45 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 09:55 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-30-2010, 10:12 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 10-30-2010, 11:45 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 12:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 04:41 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 04:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 04:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 05:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-30-2010, 05:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 07:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:31 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-30-2010, 07:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-30-2010, 08:12 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 06:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 06:44 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-31-2010, 08:56 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 09:39 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-31-2010, 10:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:43 AM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 10:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 10-31-2010, 01:27 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 10-31-2010, 02:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 05:34 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 10-31-2010, 05:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 10-31-2010, 05:36 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 10-31-2010, 05:50 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-01-2010, 04:58 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 05:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-01-2010, 05:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-01-2010, 11:38 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 11-02-2010, 03:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 11-02-2010, 07:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 11-02-2010, 08:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-02-2010, 09:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 11-02-2010, 09:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 01:05 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 11-03-2010, 08:00 AM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 11-03-2010, 03:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 04:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-03-2010, 06:04 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 11-03-2010, 06:49 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-03-2010, 08:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 11-05-2010, 05:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by Mixolydian - 11-20-2010, 01:06 AM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 11-20-2010, 11:06 PM
Re: Evolution - by Mixolydian - 11-21-2010, 03:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 11-30-2010, 09:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 11-30-2010, 09:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-01-2010, 10:50 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-01-2010, 06:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 12-01-2010, 09:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 12-22-2010, 07:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-22-2010, 07:27 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-22-2010, 08:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-22-2010, 10:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by formerbuddhist - 12-22-2010, 10:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-23-2010, 09:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-23-2010, 09:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-23-2010, 10:53 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-23-2010, 10:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-23-2010, 11:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by dnu - 12-24-2010, 01:38 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-24-2010, 01:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by sheep101 - 12-24-2010, 06:01 AM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 12-24-2010, 11:35 AM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 12-24-2010, 11:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-25-2010, 07:24 AM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-25-2010, 03:37 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-26-2010, 08:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-26-2010, 08:57 AM
Re: Evolution - by faith3faith - 12-26-2010, 10:58 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-26-2010, 11:07 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 12-26-2010, 06:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-27-2010, 07:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by icecream - 12-27-2010, 07:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-27-2010, 03:22 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-28-2010, 03:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-28-2010, 06:04 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by icecream - 12-28-2010, 06:31 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-28-2010, 06:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-28-2010, 06:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-28-2010, 10:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 10:58 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:15 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:17 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:18 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-28-2010, 11:18 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-28-2010, 11:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-29-2010, 07:19 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-29-2010, 07:23 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-29-2010, 01:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by faith3faith - 12-29-2010, 01:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-29-2010, 03:20 PM
Re: Evolution - by Cambrensis - 12-29-2010, 04:14 PM
Re: Evolution - by Thomist7735 - 12-29-2010, 04:49 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-29-2010, 11:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-30-2010, 12:08 AM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 12-30-2010, 01:56 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 07:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 03:54 PM
Re: Evolution - by devotedknuckles - 12-30-2010, 04:44 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 05:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:34 PM
Re: Evolution - by Gladium - 12-30-2010, 05:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-30-2010, 05:59 PM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 12-30-2010, 07:26 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-30-2010, 07:46 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 12:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 12-31-2010, 05:06 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 12-31-2010, 08:01 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 08:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 09:07 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 08:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 08:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 12-31-2010, 08:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 08:43 PM
Re: Evolution - by violet - 12-31-2010, 08:57 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 09:16 PM
Re: Evolution - by violet - 12-31-2010, 09:20 PM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 12-31-2010, 09:25 PM
Re: Evolution - by The Catholic Thinker - 12-31-2010, 09:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 07:59 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 01-01-2011, 08:42 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 09:15 AM
Re: Evolution - by Grasshopper - 01-01-2011, 12:51 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 02:03 PM
Re: Evolution - by justlurking - 01-01-2011, 05:35 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-01-2011, 06:07 PM
Re: Evolution - by Christus Imperat - 01-01-2011, 07:55 PM
Re: Evolution - by Resurrexi - 01-02-2011, 04:13 AM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-02-2011, 06:35 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-02-2011, 06:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by cathkath - 01-02-2011, 07:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by CrusaderKing - 01-02-2011, 09:21 PM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 01-02-2011, 11:53 PM
Re: Evolution - by James02 - 01-03-2011, 03:09 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-04-2011, 05:28 PM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 01-04-2011, 11:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Nic - 01-05-2011, 12:57 PM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-06-2011, 12:49 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 01-06-2011, 01:37 AM
Re: Evolution - by InNomineDomini - 01-06-2011, 01:46 AM
Re: Evolution - by Vetus Ordo - 01-06-2011, 11:33 AM
Re: Evolution - by cherylfoster - 01-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Re: Evolution - by steph_86 - 01-16-2011, 03:01 PM
Re: Evolution - by Metatron - 01-19-2011, 04:47 AM
Re: Evolution - by DrBombay - 02-19-2011, 02:26 AM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-04-2011, 06:11 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 06:19 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 06:24 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 06:30 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 06:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 06:38 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 07:02 PM
Re: Evolution - by INPEFESS - 04-04-2011, 07:13 PM
Re: Evolution - by Crusading Philologist - 04-04-2011, 07:24 PM
Re: Evolution - by Historian - 04-04-2011, 08:47 PM
Re: Evolution - by twinc - 04-05-2011, 01:33 PM
Re: Evolution - by twinc - 04-05-2011, 01:48 PM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-05-2011, 03:45 PM
Re: Evolution - by catholicSD - 04-05-2011, 05:40 PM
Re: Evolution - by Bminor Mass - 04-09-2011, 08:34 AM
Re: Evolution - by mikemac - 04-15-2011, 03:12 AM
Re: Evolution - by ggreg - 04-15-2011, 09:59 AM
Re: Evolution - by Bminor Mass - 04-16-2011, 11:31 AM
Re: Evolution - by someguy - 04-21-2011, 11:51 AM
Re: Evolution - by UnamSanctam - 04-21-2011, 12:00 PM



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