hatred of the Church
#31
(11-12-2010, 05:40 PM)Christopher Wrote: Do you think that the massive amount of hatred/venom towards the Church can properly be seen as evidence of Her true nature? And if so, do you think that this fact can be used effectively in apologetics/evangelization?

To the first question, sometimes. But to the second, no. Playing the victim card will never work for Catholicism in apologetics or debates, because (except for missionary countries) Catholics are very numerous, well-established and still allow themselves to get stomped on. In the United States, baptized Catholics make up the single largest group out of any one religious denomination in the United States. We have a Catholic vice president, a majority of Catholics in the Supreme Court, an abundance of Catholics in Hollywood, and so on. Whether or not they're practicing or orthodox doesn't matter, because our doctrine says that because of the sacramental mark, they are just as Catholic as the hardcores. And don't we often say things like, "the Pope is shepherd of over 1 billion Catholics. It's insulting that so-and-so magazine didn't include Benedict XVI in their list of the world's top 50 most influential people"?

So for the average person, they don't see the difference between a Nancy Pelosi and a Marcel Lefebrve (or whoever your favourite Catholic celebrity is). In fairness, there are plenty of people in this forum who have a hard time seeing the difference between a nominal Jew and an orthodox, or a nominal Muslim and a suicide bomber. Just apply that to Catholics and you see how the rest of the world thinks.
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#32
(11-16-2010, 03:24 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: Whether or not they're practicing or orthodox doesn't matter, because our doctrine says that because of the sacramental mark, they are just as Catholic as the hardcores.

I believe you may have misstated what you were trying to say. Now certainly Baptism creates an indelible mark which means they are "marked" as a Catholic. However if a Catholic manifestly denies even one article of faith they become a heretic and cease to be a member of the Church (thus ceasing to be a Catholic, though they retain the mark of Baptism). This would include pro-choice 'Catholics', pro-sodomite 'Catholics', and others who deny EENS or are complicit in the heresy of protestants and eastern Schismatics.

Charitably,
Mixolydian
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#33
(11-16-2010, 10:52 AM)Mixolydian Wrote: I believe you may have misstated what you were trying to say. Now certainly Baptism creates an indelible mark which means they are "marked" as a Catholic. However if a Catholic manifestly denies even one article of faith they become a heretic and cease to be a member of the Church (thus ceasing to be a Catholic, though they retain the mark of Baptism).

I don't know about that one. The Inquisitions purported to have authority over all baptized Catholics. If a heretic ceases to have any Catholic identity, then the Inquisition couldn't have jurisdiction over them...
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#34
(11-16-2010, 05:59 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(11-16-2010, 10:52 AM)Mixolydian Wrote: I believe you may have misstated what you were trying to say. Now certainly Baptism creates an indelible mark which means they are "marked" as a Catholic. However if a Catholic manifestly denies even one article of faith they become a heretic and cease to be a member of the Church (thus ceasing to be a Catholic, though they retain the mark of Baptism).

I don't know about that one. The Inquisitions purported to have authority over all baptized Catholics. If a heretic ceases to have any Catholic identity, then the Inquisition couldn't have jurisdiction over them...

The Inquisitions claimed authority over all baptized persons, Catholic or not, if I'm not mistaken.
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#35
Sure, but a heretic ceases to be a member of the Church, by definition:

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi:
“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man
from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.
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#36
(11-17-2010, 12:47 AM)Mixolydian Wrote: Sure, but a heretic ceases to be a member of the Church, by definition:

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi:
“For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man
from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.

Hmm, okay, I'll buy that. Thanks.

That being said, I believe my point still stands as far as people's general perceptions about Catholicism go. It's sort of like saying Osama bin Laden isn't a true Muslim, therefore he doesn't represent what Islam is really about. That may be the case, but for anyone who's not a Muslim, it doesn't really matter.
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