Willful Ignorance over the Pope's Remarks
(11-21-2010, 10:49 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(11-21-2010, 09:21 PM)Jitpring Wrote:
(11-21-2010, 08:02 PM)JayneK Wrote: A person in the state of mortal is capable of growing in moral understanding. 

Yes, but while in mortal sin he's still headed to hell - like the sodomite who uses a condom. Headed to hell. This isn't progress.

Of course.  A person in a state of mortal sin is by definition headed to hell.  It is nevertheless possible for him to have a gradual reawakening of conscience leading to repentance and salvation.  The process of awakening the conscience is a good thing, even while it takes place in a person in a state of mortal sin.

Indeed.
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(11-21-2010, 10:46 PM)NorthernTrad Wrote: The fact that fellow Catholics have spent several pages of replies debating this with you should tell you something about the current state of the Church and explains why Benedict XVI would feel comfortable speaking this way.  He has a whole army that is willing to defend this mockery.
The fact that fellow Catholics have spent pages explaining Catholic teaching to him and he still doesn't get it, does indeed tell us something.
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(11-21-2010, 09:30 PM)Jitpring Wrote: Where's the growth, where's any hint of conversion, when immediately after putting on a condom, the sodomite proceeds to sodomize? Does this not immediately annihilate any alleged growth in moral understanding?
No.  It is possible to grow in moral understanding while sinning.
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(11-21-2010, 10:44 PM)JayneK Wrote: The interview in question was with a sympathetic Catholic journalist.  Other journalists are taking the comments (presumably  accurately) reported by this initial one and twisting them.

Aha...I guess there's just no way to prevent J. Jonah Jamesons from vilifying the pontiff.  Thank you, Jayne for the info.
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(11-21-2010, 10:46 PM)NorthernTrad Wrote: The fact that fellow Catholics have spent several pages of replies debating this with you should tell you something about the current state of the Church and explains why Benedict XVI would feel comfortable speaking this way.  He has a whole army that is willing to defend this mockery.

I know. It's incredible. Apparently the litany of woeful statistics cited at the beginning here are all too true, if it's like this even among "traditionalists":

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/200803...Times.html


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Just out of curiosity, are you addicted to those audio lectures?
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(11-21-2010, 10:50 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote:
(11-21-2010, 10:46 PM)NorthernTrad Wrote:
(11-21-2010, 09:44 PM)Jitpring Wrote:
(11-21-2010, 09:32 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: This is a hypothetical case. Aren't you reading into this a bit much?

I don't think so. The pope says there may be some "moralization" when the sodomite decides to use a condom. I say this possibility is immediately negated when he then proceeds to commit sodomy, which is - let's never forget - a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance.

By the way, here's some of the "clarity" Benedict's comments have spawned:

[url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704444304575628611227070080.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704444304575628611227070080.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond[/


The fact that fellow Catholics have spent several pages of replies debating this with you should tell you something about the current state of the Church and explains why Benedict XVI would feel comfortable speaking this way.  He has a whole army that is willing to defend this mockery.

You're someone who's either easily manipulated or interested in doing some manipulating yourself.   I personally don't appreciate having my comments twisted viciously by malign or ignorant agencies, and I'm sure you don't either, but your comments taken at face value are very offensive and have very little informational value.

Stating the obvious but true has nothing to do with "twisting viciously" anything that you alone said.  As far as being offensive, you need to toughen up. There have been more Catholics in the history of the Church whom most thought were "offensive" than not.
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(11-21-2010, 10:49 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(11-21-2010, 09:21 PM)Jitpring Wrote:
(11-21-2010, 08:02 PM)JayneK Wrote: A person in the state of mortal is capable of growing in moral understanding. 

Yes, but while in mortal sin he's still headed to hell - like the sodomite who uses a condom. Headed to hell. This isn't progress.

Of course.  A person in a state of mortal sin is by definition headed to hell.  It is nevertheless possible for him to have a gradual reawakening of conscience leading to repentance and salvation.  The process of awakening the conscience is a good thing, even while it takes place in a person in a state of mortal sin.
A person is not going to awaken their conscience by doubling up on mortal sin, in this case using a condom.  God struck Onan dead for spilling his seed on the ground (which, by the way is where we get the first basis for the Church's stance on wearing condoms).  Onan did not have a moral awaking, he died instead.
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(11-21-2010, 11:06 PM)Underdog Wrote: Just out of curiosity, are you addicted to those audio lectures?

Instead of the radio, I listen to one every night while going to sleep. The next night I begin from where I fell asleep the night before.
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(11-21-2010, 10:47 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: It's not even evident the hypothetical person mentioned was a sodomite; there seems to be a disconnect between what was written and what you're imagining in your mind.  Surely, you realize that a lot of male prostitutes cater to women.

For the third time, the vast majority of male prostitutes cater to homosexuals.
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