Willful Ignorance over the Pope's Remarks
#61
(11-21-2010, 06:00 PM)JayneK Wrote: It was perfectly clear so the answer to your question is yes.

If he had simply reiterated the teaching on contraception, there would have been hardly a murmur. It's precisely because what he said was muddled that it's receiving so much attention, and is indeed being interpreted as a license for contraception.
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#62
A condom is always a moral evil. There can be no justification or excuse under any circumstance whatsoever for all of eternity. A condom should not exist because it is by itself an intrinsic evil and its use always evil.

It is against the morals and teachings of the Catholic Church to suggest its existence and use.
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#63
(11-21-2010, 06:10 PM)Jitpring Wrote: No. By going ahead with the killing he proved that in fact he had made no moral progress. You don't seem to be able to grasp this.

By going ahead with the killing he shows that he has not yet made enough moral progress.  This does not mean that he has made no progress.

I was not raised Catholic.  In my teens I became a Protestant.  This was progress, but I had not yet found the fullness of truth taught by the Catholic Church.  Even when I first became Catholic, I was in a very liberal parish that taught me some things that were wrong.  It took me years to go through the process of developing a correct understanding of Christian doctrine.  Moral development often follows a similar process.  Sometimes these things take time.
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#64
(11-21-2010, 06:16 PM)Jitpring Wrote:
(11-21-2010, 06:00 PM)JayneK Wrote: It was perfectly clear so the answer to your question is yes.

If he had simply reiterated the teaching on contraception, there would have been hardly a murmur. It's precisely because what he said was muddled that it's receiving so much attention, and is indeed being interpreted as a license for contraception.

It was not muddled.  It was perfectly comprehensible to people who approach it with a will to understand it.  The meaning was twisted by those in whose interest it lies to not understand it.
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#65
(11-21-2010, 06:30 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: A condom is always a moral evil. There can be no justification or excuse under any circumstance whatsoever for all of eternity. A condom sholud not exist because it is by itself an intrinsic evil and its use always evil.

It is against the morals and teachings of the Catholic Church to suggest its existence and use.

I was under the impression that it is only immoral because of its purpose, which is to frustrate the end of the act in which it is normally used. (I am not infallible and will submit to correction if this is wrong.)
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#66
(11-21-2010, 04:16 PM)JayneK Wrote: Among trads I expect a general recognition that fuller richer of the TLM is better than the "dumbed down" liturgy of the Novus Ordo.  Yet there are quite a few people here clamouring for "dumbed down" theology.  They are saying, "The Pope should not give real Catholic theology to people because they won't be able to understand it."  That was the very reasoning that, applied to liturgy, got us the NO Mass. 

The tradition of the Catholic Church is that there is some complexity to theology.  People who want something simplistic should be fundamentalists.  Within the Catholic Church we have an intellectual tradition of thinking through ideas and recognizing nuances.  It goes back to our earliest years and runs through the ages: St. Irenaeus, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Basil, St. Gregory Nazianzus, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Robert Bellarmine, and more than I can list.  The Pope is guilty of talking like a Catholic rather than a fundamentalist.  Guess what.  That is as it should be.

Well said.  It is intelligent, thoughtful posters like you that keep me from deleting my account on this forum when I get outraged by some of the quasi-sede trolls.
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#67
(11-21-2010, 06:30 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: A condom is always a moral evil. There can be no justification or excuse under any circumstance whatsoever for all of eternity. A condom should not exist because it is by itself an intrinsic evil and its use always evil.

It is against the morals and teachings of the Catholic Church to suggest its existence and use.

A piece of rubber is an intrinsic evil?  By itself it is nothing.  It is the use that matters.  A homosexual sex act is made neither more or less evil when a condom is involved.  Birth control pills can be used by non-sexually-active women to treat a variety of hormonal disorders.  If the users are celibate, then there is no danger of conception, and thus no sin involved in its use.  A woman who has a hysterectomy due to advanced uterine cancer commits no sin, despite the fact that she can be come infertile as a consequence.  Intention and circumstance matter.  If you disagree, take it up with St. Thomas Aquinas.

I would expect higher sophistication in philosophical reasoning from people on this forum. 
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#68
(11-21-2010, 06:16 PM)Jitpring Wrote:
(11-21-2010, 06:00 PM)JayneK Wrote: It was perfectly clear so the answer to your question is yes.

If he had simply reiterated the teaching on contraception, there would have been hardly a murmur. It's precisely because what he said was muddled that it's receiving so much attention, and is indeed being interpreted as a license for contraception.

Unfortunately, Joseph Ratzinger is a lifelong theologian and philosopher.  If you've read many of his books, you know that this very nuanced style of speaking is consistent throughout his theological writings.  In all of his books, he puts a disclaimer at the beginning that makes clear that any remarks in the book are to be taken as his opinions as a private theologian, not as official teachings of the Church.

I do agree with you to an extent; it is probably not the wisest idea for a Pope to write anything as a private theologian because the modern media lacks the sophistication to understand that everything he says isn't an Ex Cathedra.  On the other hand, you have to admit that there is a lot of malice on the media's part involved to intentionally distort the Pope's words.
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#69
(11-21-2010, 06:31 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(11-21-2010, 06:10 PM)Jitpring Wrote: No. By going ahead with the killing he proved that in fact he had made no moral progress. You don't seem to be able to grasp this.

By going ahead with the killing he shows that he has not yet made enough moral progress.  This does not mean that he has made no progress.

I was not raised Catholic.  In my teens I became a Protestant.  This was progress, but I had not yet found the fullness of truth taught by the Catholic Church.  Even when I first became Catholic, I was in a very liberal parish that taught me some things that were wrong.  It took me years to go through the process of developing a correct understanding of Christian doctrine.  Moral development often follows a similar process.  Sometimes these things take time.

Let's say that you were an atheist who enjoyed participating in ritual murder. Say you then became a theist and joined a protestant sect which practiced ritual murder. Progress?
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#70
(11-21-2010, 06:30 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: A condom is always a moral evil. There can be no justification or excuse under any circumstance whatsoever for all of eternity. A condom should not exist because it is by itself an intrinsic evil and its use always evil.

It is against the morals and teachings of the Catholic Church to suggest its existence and use.

Watch out, friend. The cognoscenti will accuse you of insufficient sophistication.

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