Priest calls translation of "pro multis" to "for many" a "heresy"!
#11
(11-29-2010, 10:18 PM)timoose Wrote: HK, you're right, but we, the old, followed the priest and when he bowed, or genuflected, or made the sign of the cross, we followed suit. These are the reasons today why you guys make the sign of the cross at the Indulgentiam, absolutionem, et remissionem peccatorum... There are no rubrics for this, for the folks in the pews, but we followed the priest.

Well, if that's how you say it was, then it is. In my experience, a lot of those things go unobserved; not that it really matters, but it helps to follow the gestures.

Quote:And this is not aimed at HK, but this is the organic growth  of the Mass, and it never stands still, nor is it archaeology. I've come to this realization the High Mass is the past and the Missa Cantata or the Recitata or the Dialogata is the way forward. It is the way to re-join all of us.
tim

I don't have anything against organic growth, either. I also think options are warranted in the traditional liturgy. I don't see why high Mass (I assume you mean solemn Mass) should no longer be the ideal, though. The fundamental thing is getting more deacons and subdeacons to assist the priest; so rather than there just being priest and people, there's a hierarchy. Expanding the holy orders should be an organic growth.
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#12
No no No my friend I'm not saying it isn't ideal at all. I'm saying since all of us are small, those Masses are more appropriate. It allows you to sing in the Schola and it allows me and others to make the responses. As I said in another post I lose my sense and sometimes find my self chanting the Gospel, which I shouldn't do, but I am so familiar with it, and most priests under 45 so new to it, well, I sing better. You are probably familiar with this, too. I've heard you sing here when you've posted, and it is very good.  I'm thinking these Masses are the way forward. The NO Mass folks with a little training and you without it could make a beautiful blend.I love singing the Gloria in excelsis Deo !
tim 
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#13
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. There are a thousand things the GIRM says to do (normal things) and the priests don't do them and nobody disciplines the priest. And there are a thousand instructions and clarifications from the Vatican about what not to do in mass, and the priests just ignore all this, do what they want, and are not disciplined for any of it. So in the end, new translation, old translation, it's all going to be the same, because the actors are all the same. I mean, yes, some young priests who want to do the right thing may benefit. But not the ones who have been abusing the mass for years. Changing the rules won't change a thing. Only a change in the people will do this.

At some point the Church must choose: either draw a line in the sand and risk a fast, massive apostasy; or keep on trucking as we have been and witness a slower, massive apostasy. There is no other alternative.
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#14
(11-29-2010, 10:18 PM)timoose Wrote: HK, you're right, but we, the old, followed the priest and when he bowed, or genuflected, or made the sign of the cross, we followed suit. These are the reasons today why you guys make the sign of the cross at the Indulgentiam, absolutionem, et remissionem peccatorum... There are no rubrics for this, for the folks in the pews, but we followed the priest. And this is not aimed at HK, but this is the organic growth  of the Mass, and it never stands still, nor is it archaeology. I've come to this realization the High Mass is the past and the Missa Cantata or the Recitata or the Dialogata is the way forward. It is the way to re-join all of us.
tim

I do that too!

I've always wondered why.  I've got my altarboys and other people in the congregation to follow suit with me.  Never knew it wasn't in the rubrics.
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#15
This is like Father Moderator on crack
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#16
(11-29-2010, 11:27 PM)maldon Wrote: I don't understand what all the fuss is about. There are a thousand things the GIRM says to do (normal things) and the priests don't do them and nobody disciplines the priest. And there are a thousand instructions and clarifications from the Vatican about what not to do in mass, and the priests just ignore all this, do what they want, and are not disciplined for any of it. So in the end, new translation, old translation, it's all going to be the same, because the actors are all the same. I mean, yes, some young priests who want to do the right thing may benefit. But not the ones who have been abusing the mass for years. Changing the rules won't change a thing. Only a change in the people will do this.

At some point the Church must choose: either draw a line in the sand and risk a fast, massive apostasy; or keep on trucking as we have been and witness a slower, massive apostasy. There is no other alternative.

This.
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#17
Actually, to translate it as "for all" is correct.  "For many" was a euphemism in Aramaic at the time and meant "for all."  The latin translation kept the original wording but the meaning was forgotten.
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#18
(11-29-2010, 11:05 PM)timoose Wrote: No no No my friend I'm not saying it isn't ideal at all. I'm saying since all of us are small, those Masses are more appropriate. It allows you to sing in the Schola and it allows me and others to make the responses. As I said in another post I lose my sense and sometimes find my self chanting the Gospel, which I shouldn't do, but I am so familiar with it, and most priests under 45 so new to it, well, I sing better. You are probably familiar with this, too. I've heard you sing here when you've posted, and it is very good.  I'm thinking these Masses are the way forward. The NO Mass folks with a little training and you without it could make a beautiful blend.I love singing the Gloria in excelsis Deo !
tim  

That makes sense. I can agree with that.

By the way, it's rare in my experience to meet a priest, young or old, who really knows all the singing tones of the Mass, like the Epistle, Gospel, etc. It's almost like they're making it up as they go, and it's really frustrating. On the other hand, those few permanent deacons I've known to chant the Epistle or Gospel tend to know the difference and follow the rules. (And, in the Novus Ordo, the first reading/Old Testament Prophecy has its own tone taken from the one used on the ember days.)
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#19
Pretty old article.
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#20
In Spanish the mass has always said Para Muchos (for Many) I guess all spanish speaking priests are heretics for this guy
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