Priest calls translation of "pro multis" to "for many" a "heresy"!
#21
The Council of Trent condemned the teaching that Christ's blood was shed "for all" and states that "for all" is not an appropriate translation for "pro multis". However, I don't know the exact reference.
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#22
(11-30-2010, 12:44 AM)Melkite Wrote: Actually, to translate it as "for all" is correct.  "For many" was a euphemism in Aramaic at the time and meant "for all."  The latin translation kept the original wording but the meaning was forgotten.

I wish people would not make statements like this without backing it with citations, references, and in this case an erudite Aramic phraseology that "for all" means "for many."   

Two verses in the Holy Scriptures has Our Lord state "for many."  (Matthew 26:20; Mark 14:24)  The holy Council of Trent codified the Duoay-Rheims and that's that:  "for many" means just that.

In the Garden of Gethsemani, Jesus' capillary blood vessels burst sheding perspiration of blood, as He began His passion and He foresaw the enormity of the sins of mankind which He was to pay with His death and as well knowing that not all men would benefit from His death, and thus from the Cross he cried out, "Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani?"  "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me" (Mark 15:34), seeing that many will be lost inspite of His paying the ransom for sin.  He came to pay the debt for all men but not all would be saved.

Bowing is a Japanese custom, adapted by the Eastern Church.  In the Western Church the sign of reverence and respect is to genuflect, which I do when I attend the N.O.M.  Here in P.I., the Nicene Creed is not recited, instead they say the Apostles Creed.  I don't know why,  One thing that's done right though, is that altar boys are BOYS.  No girls need apply.

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#23
(11-29-2010, 11:49 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: This is like Father Moderator on crack
:laughing:

Or Bizzaro Father Moderator...
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#24
(11-29-2010, 09:12 PM)quotidianum Wrote: "Good Latin but heretical English will have priests proclaiming that Christ shed his blood ‘for you and for many.’"

[i]"In English, “many” without the article is an indeterminate word. It can mean a handful, a few dozen, a few thousand. It never means, however, the majority, let alone everyone.  On the other hand, “the many” can mean everyone. In order to be slavishly faithful to Latin grammar, [b]

What about Greek grammar?  Is it just a coincidence that the Ukrainian and Ruthenian parishes (who's English Liturgies are translated from Greek)  I have attended for years use the translation "for many"?  I wonder if they know their Liturgies are heretical?  :laughing: 
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#25
(11-30-2010, 04:46 AM)MichaelNZ Wrote: The Council of Trent condemned the teaching that Christ's blood was shed "for all" and states that "for all" is not an appropriate translation for "pro multis". However, I don't know the exact reference.

Interesting.  I wonder how an infallible council is to be reconciled with a cultural figure of speech that clearly contradicts it?  Did Trent define itself as having the ability to redefine colloquial Aramaic ex post facto?

(11-30-2010, 05:36 AM)Vincentius Wrote: Two verses in the Holy Scriptures has Our Lord state "for many."  (Matthew 26:20; Mark 14:24)  The holy Council of Trent codified the Duoay-Rheims and that's that:  "for many" means just that.

The literal Syriac words used were "for many."  The Douay Rheims then contains a literal translation.  Colloquial usages are lost with literal translations.  In anything other than theology, when does it make sense to use a Latin understanding of a phrase from 1000AD to interpret a Syriac phrase from 1000 years prior?  That's just about assinine.  Jesus said "for many" in 30AD Syriac usage, not 1000AD Latin usage, therefore it is safe to say he meant what 30 AD Israelites would have understood him to mean, not what 1000AD Romans would have understood him to mean.
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#26
(11-29-2010, 11:27 PM)maldon Wrote: I don't understand what all the fuss is about. There are a thousand things the GIRM says to do (normal things) and the priests don't do them and nobody disciplines the priest. And there are a thousand instructions and clarifications from the Vatican about what not to do in mass, and the priests just ignore all this, do what they want, and are not disciplined for any of it. So in the end, new translation, old translation, it's all going to be the same, because the actors are all the same. I mean, yes, some young priests who want to do the right thing may benefit. But not the ones who have been abusing the mass for years. Changing the rules won't change a thing. Only a change in the people will do this.

At some point the Church must choose: either draw a line in the sand and risk a fast, massive apostasy; or keep on trucking as we have been and witness a slower, massive apostasy. There is no other alternative.

We already have a massive apostasy, if in fact like 95% of married Catholics ignore church teaching on birth control.
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#27
This is my prediction, were going to have lots of these fruit loop Priests saying the Mass however they want and ignoring the new new new translation anyway.
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#28
(11-30-2010, 12:44 AM)Melkite Wrote: Actually, to translate it as "for all" is correct.  "For many" was a euphemism in Aramaic at the time and meant "for all."  The latin translation kept the original wording but the meaning was forgotten.

Here is the Catechism of the Council of Trent's explanation of the distinction made by the employment of the phrase "pro multis" and the connotation of that phrase as opposed to the connotation of the phrase "for all":

"The additional words for you and for many, are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Spirit of God. They serve to declare the fruit and advantage of His Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it pertains not unto all, but to many of the human race. When therefore ('our Lord) said: For you, He meant either those who were present, or those chosen from among the Jewish people, such as were, with the exception of Judas, the disciples with whom He was speaking. When He added, And for many, He wished to be understood to mean the remainder of the elect from among the Jews or Gentiles.

"With reason, therefore, were the words for all not used, as in this place the fruits of the Passion are alone spoken of, and to the elect only did His Passion bring the fruit of salvation. And this is the purport of the Apostle when he says: Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; and also of the words of our Lord in John: I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me, because they are thine."
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#29
(11-30-2010, 12:44 AM)Melkite Wrote: Actually, to translate it as "for all" is correct.  "For many" was a euphemism in Aramaic at the time and meant "for all."  The latin translation kept the original wording but the meaning was forgotten.

We don't have the text that Christ used at the Last Supper in Aramaic, though. All we have is the Greek "περὶ πολλῶν." Having formally studied ancient Greek, I can tell you that πολύς means many, not all. If you don't believe me, you can consult the Liddle and Scott Greek lexicon, a standard among those studying classics today. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=polu%2Fs&la=greek#lexicon
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#30
(11-30-2010, 07:23 PM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(11-30-2010, 12:44 AM)Melkite Wrote: Actually, to translate it as "for all" is correct.  "For many" was a euphemism in Aramaic at the time and meant "for all."  The latin translation kept the original wording but the meaning was forgotten.

We don't have the text that Christ used at the Last Supper in Aramaic, though. All we have is the Greek "περὶ πολλῶν." Having formally studied ancient Greek, I can tell you that πολύς means many, not all. If you don't believe me, you can consult the Liddle and Scott Greek lexicon, a standard among those studying classics today. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=polu%2Fs&la=greek#lexicon

You're missing what I'm saying.  The words were for many.  In syriac, for many was a euphemism for for all.  Like a thousand years was a euphemism for forever.
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