The translation of "pro multis" as "for many" vs. "for all"
(12-20-2010, 05:21 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(12-20-2010, 05:07 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: Stubborn, I think you're reading too much into "ought to be".  De defectibus and the Catechism say what they "ought" to be as well, and those, too, are by order of the Pope.  And the original Latin has "pro multis" which is what the Pope is talking about, anyhow.  He wasn't part of the USCCB translation team.

It may seem like I'm reading too much into what ought to be, however, the vernacular, not latin, has been the norm and still is. Since what "ought to be" said in the vernacular ("for many") is not what is being said over the chalice, the sacrament is invalid per De defectibus.

The vernacular does not say "for many". It says "for all". Do NO priests who say the mass in the vernacular say "for all" or "for many"?

I'm pointing out your intellectual dishonesty.  Paul VI's words were about the promulgated Latin, not the crappy translations that were done by the Bishops of each country.  You're making it sound like, purposefully I would guess, he's talking about the translated versions.

Quote:Aside from that, the form has been changed, not just "all" / "many". Which once again, per De defectibus render the sacrament either invalid or a sin. I don't see how there is any way around that - unless one thinks they can convince everyone that there is no difference in meanings between "all" and "many".

Because De defectibus is in align with Aquinas in that it is only invalid if the form is substantially changed.  The substance of the form is found in "This is my body; this is my blood."  That was not changed in the New Mass.  For other changes that don't affect the substance, De defectibus says it is a grave sin.

Or do you think Christ invalidly confected at the Last Supper since what He said differs in inerrant Scripture from the form we have from Tradition?

The substance of the Sacramental form is in "this is my body; this is my blood".  If you don't understand this, re-read the section on the Eucharist in the Roman Catechism, and you will find it to be so.

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Re: The translation of "pro multis" as "for many" vs. "for all" - by Historian - 12-20-2010, 08:57 AM

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