The translation of "pro multis" as "for many" vs. "for all"
#80
(12-20-2010, 11:49 PM)ripmarcel Wrote:
(12-20-2010, 05:44 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: 1) No one disagrees they are different.

2) You can maintain it all you want, now provide an argument for it.

Let's approach it from a different way:

According to de defectibus, what type of changes/errors would be mortal sin and not invalidate the Sacrament?

DeDefectibus:
"Defects on the part of the form may arise if anything is missing from the complete wording required for the act of consecrating.  Now the words of the Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are: Hoc est enim Corpus meum, and Hic est enim Calix Sanguinis mei, novi et aeterni testamenti: mysterium fidei: qui pro vobis et pro multis effundetur in remissionem peccatorum.  If the priest were to shorten or change the form of the consecration of the Body and the Blood, so that in the change of wording the words did not mean the same thing, he would not be achieving a valid Sacrament.  If, on the other hand, he were to add or take away anything which did not change the meaning, the Sacrament would be valid, but he would be committing a grave sin."

We've been through this before, but I'll play along:  Since "for many" is part of the "complete wording required for the act of consecrating," and since "for many" and "for all" don't have the same meaning, then the use of "for all" invalidates the sacrament.

You're making a circular argument by assuming something that is not proven to prove your argument, and you're not answering the question.  I will restate it.

Can you give me a concrete example of a type of change or error that would result in mortal sin but not an invalidation of the Sacrament?

Quote:Now, I'm curious.  Can you name another sacrament that has a so-called "short form"?  Can you point to an authorized pre-VCII missal that contains a short form for the sacrament--or even one that has a notation alluding to a shortened form?  And can you tell me why I can't seem to find  a single pre-VCII source that authorizes priests to use a shortened form (perhaps in an emergency)?

I've never claimed there was a "short form".  What I've claimed is that as long as the meaning is not changed, the Sacrament is valid - same as De defectibus states.

But to address your concern, it clearly implies it can be shortened without changing the meaning:

"If the priest were to shorten ... the form of the consecration of the Body and the Blood, so that in the change of wording the words did not mean the same thing"

That means the contrary is also true:

if the priest were to shorten... the form of the consecration of the Body and the Blood, so that in the change of wording the words did mean the same thing [the Sacrament would be valid].
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Re: The translation of "pro multis" as "for many" vs. "for all" - by Historian - 12-22-2010, 09:53 AM



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