The translation of "pro multis" as "for many" vs. "for all"
(12-29-2010, 06:28 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: You're missing the point that the body and blood can be confected outside of Mass, albeit illicitly.  In fact, only one of the Body or Blood can be confected, and without both, there is no Sacrifice.

We're not discussing the efficacy of the Sacrifice.  We're talking about the validity of the Sacrament.  Those are two different things.

ETA:  If you want to say the efficacy of the Sacrifice in the NOM is less than that of the TLM, you won't get a lot of argument from me.  That is much different than saying the Consecration is invalid.

No, I'm not missing the point.  If there can be a sacrament without the sacrifice, then we don't need a priest, and anyone, given the intention to do what the Church does, can consecrate.  But given that the formula for consecration is an integral part of the sacrifice, we do need a priest to offer that sacrifice, and in the course of doing so, consecrate and consume that sacrificial offering.  it follows, then, that if there is no sacrifice, there is no sacrament.  (And that's why Luther wanted to destroy the sacrificial aspect of the Mass, to transform it from the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ to exactly what we have today in the N.O.--a "memorial of the Lord's Supper," or a "gathering of the people" to share a symbolic meal of ordinary bread and wine.)

No sacrifice, no Mass.  No Mass, no transubstantiation.  No transubstantiation, no sacrament.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.  And I'll leave you with this:  The N.O. Mass is invalid.  It is invalid because the Mass has been redefined by the N.O. Church in order to complete Luther's work of denying the sacrificial essence of the liturgy; and, it is also likely invalid because the formula for consecration has been changed in a substantive way, thus failing the Church's own three-pronged test for validity.
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Re: The translation of "pro multis" as "for many" vs. "for all" - by ripmarcel - 12-30-2010, 05:05 PM



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