Dan Rather Interviews Bishop Fellay
#51
(12-09-2010, 10:00 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote:
(12-09-2010, 08:53 PM)Baskerville Wrote:
(12-09-2010, 08:21 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: We begin to have a community together, and the mass would be more like a meal, like a -
- gathering of Christian believers around the table, reading the scriptures in their own
language, encouraged to read the scriptures, and to study the scriptures, and to act on
them, to find Jesus, and to step away from the rules of the Church. It was terribly
liberating and I just felt like it was a second birth for me.

(Not that this kind of things fools an educated Catholic.)



Then how do you explain the educated Catholic Bishops who have proposed this and The NeoCathecumanal(spelling) Way that does this exact thing with the Popes(an educated Catholic) blessing?

I should have added good-willed to "educated" - obviously educated people can still embrace error.

Please post a reference of a pope blessing explicitly the type of thing that was posted - but there isn't one.  A general blessing of a group some of whose members may have expressed error is not the same thing.

http://www.camminoneocatecumenale.it/new/default.asp?lang=en&page=statuto08_4


Quote:The Holy See has approved in a definitive manner the juridical Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way. With the formal consignment of the decree of Approval on behalf of the President of the Pontifical Council for the Laity to the initiators of the Neocatechumenal Way, Kiko Argüello, Carmen Hernández, and Father Mario Pezzi, was concluded on the morning of the 13th of June, 2008, the juridical "iter" that began six years ago when the ad experimentum Statutes were approved. A few months before, the Council for the Laity had been appointed by the Servant of God John Paul II as the dicastery that had to assume in the name of the Holy See the work of approving these statutes, even though it had nothing to do with an association of faithful. With the present act the Pontifical Council has fulfilled the task assigned by the Pope.

Fourth, that in these celebrations the approved liturgical books of the roman rite are used "with the exception of the explicit concessions from the Holy See" (always with unleavened bread, and transferring "the Rite of Peace, communion under both species, brief admonitions and echoes)." With regards, finally, to Communion, the mentioned art. 13 § 3 results in a particular neatness: "Regarding the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species, the neocatechumens receive it standing, remaining at their place."


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#52
Here are the approved statues on the liturgy for the NW:

Quote:3rd
The kerygma in the sacraments and in the koinonia: the catecheses culminate in the .
convivence with the celebration  of the Eucharist. This celebration, prepared by appropriate
catecheses, helps to rediscover the paschal splendor emphasized by the Second Vatican Council
and to experience communion among the brothers and sisters. Indeed, “it is not possible to form
a Christian community unless it has as its root and as its hinge the celebration of the most holy
Eucharist. From this therefore all education to form community spirit must begin.”


The  celebration of the Eucharist will accompany the community throughout the whole itinerary.

§ 4. The team of catechists, having finished the initial catecheses, explains to the presbyter,
who presides over the community, and to the team of responsibles how to do the preparation of
the celebration of the Word and the Eucharist
(see art. 11 § 3 and art. 13 § 4) and how to proceed

§ 1. Every neocatechumenal community has a weekly celebration of the Word of God, usually with four readings,  according to the themes indicated by the Orientations for the Teams of Catechists for each step.
§ 2. In the celebration of the Word of God, before the homily, the presbyter invites whoever
wishes among those present to express briefly  how the Word which has been proclaimed has
spoken to his life.
In the homily, which holds  a privileged place in the instruction of the
Neocatechumenate the presbyter extends the proclamation of the Word, interpreting it
according to the Magisterium  and actualizing it in the “today” of the journey of faith of the
neocatechumens.
§ 3.[b] Each celebration of the Word is prepared with care, in turn, by a group of the
community, with the help, whenever possible, of the presbyter
. The group chooses the readings
and the songs, prepares the monitions and arranges the  room and the liturgical signs for the
celebration, caring with zeal for its dignity and beauty.39[/b]

§ 4. In order to enter more deeply into the Scriptures “with the mind and the heart of the
Church”, the neocatechumens make use, above all,  of the writings of the Fathers, of the
documents of the Magisterium, specially the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and of works of
spiritual writer


§ 1. “The sacrament of Penance contributes in a pre-eminent way to sustain Christian life.”
In their itinerary of conversion, the neocatechumens celebrate it periodically according to the rite
of reconciliation for several penitents
with individual confession and absolution. Moreover, they
are educated to frequent recourse to the sacrament of Penance according to the rite of
reconciliation for a single penitent.


Compare with:

Quote:We begin to have a community together, and the mass would be more like a meal, like a -
- gathering of Christian believers around the table, reading the scriptures in their own
language, encouraged to read the scriptures, and to study the scriptures, and to act on
them, to

So, yeah, that explicit kind of thing has been approved by JP2.
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#53
How did JP2 go from writing in the early 80s that "to touch the sacred Species is a privilege that belong only to the ordained" (i.e., ruling out Communion in the Hand) to the little old man at World Youth Day presiding over a Mass with Indian "liturgical dancers" and the worst Eucharistic abuses imaginable?

Did he completely and radically change his beliefs on the Mass and the Eucharist or was he being coerced and railroaded?

I know the picture painted in Windswept House - not that that's Gospel. ;)  (It's the latter.)

I know also that he was lied to and fooled by American clergy many times - such as when his investigation of the seminaries became a total whitewash (by the seminaries - see Goodbye, Good Men).

He was never one of them, not even close.  But John Paul the Great?  No, I don't think so either!
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#54
(12-10-2010, 10:00 AM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: How did JP2 go from writing in the early 80s that "to touch the sacred Species is a privilege that belong only to the ordained" (i.e., ruling out Communion in the Hand) to the little old man at World Youth Day presiding over a Mass with Indian "liturgical dancers" and the worst Eucharistic abuses imaginable?

Because that quote is taken out of context.  It isn't a defence of COTT.
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#55
I was thinking about the video earlier today and several unrelated points occurred to me, why did Bishop Fellay allow this video and the "unprecedented access" to the seminary? 

If I were him, I would also do an electronic sweeep of all areas that were visited by the media (including confessionals) for bugging devices.

Also, I found it ironic that he was vigorously but rather sloppily  defending the Inquisition ( or denying the alleged crimes of the Inquisition ) while condemning Williamson's defense of the Church with his accusation that the "holocaust" has been greatly exaggerated in the exact same way the Inquisition was. 

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#56
(12-10-2010, 01:38 PM)Gerard Wrote: I was thinking about the video earlier today and several unrelated points occurred to me, why did Bishop Fellay allow this video and the "unprecedented access" to the seminary? 

If I were him, I would also do an electronic sweeep of all areas that were visited by the media (including confessionals) for bugging devices.

Also, I found it ironic that he was vigorously but rather sloppily  defending the Inquisition ( or denying the alleged crimes of the Inquisition ) while condemning Williamson's defense of the Church with his accusation that the "holocaust" has been greatly exaggerated in the exact same way the Inquisition was. 

There are devices that can detect electronic surveillance in a room.  It would be a good idea for them to invest in those things.
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#57
I was originally thinking about how they may have bugged Bishop Fellay's office or whereever it was that the interview occurred, but then I thought, of  the havoc they could wreak by revealing things said in the confessional.  The lack of trust it would engender, false accusations of breaking the seal, what a nightmare.
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#58
(12-10-2010, 02:05 PM)Gerard Wrote: I was originally thinking about how they may have bugged Bishop Fellay's office or whereever it was that the interview occurred, but then I thought, of  the havoc they could wreak by revealing things said in the confessional.  The lack of trust it would engender, false accusations of breaking the seal, what a nightmare.

The liability for that would be too substantial for them to contemplate that, but I wouldn't put it past some governments to do such things.
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#59
Apparently wearing a tinfoil hat prevents the men in black from knowing your thoughts.
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#60
(12-10-2010, 02:24 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote:
(12-10-2010, 02:05 PM)Gerard Wrote: I was originally thinking about how they may have bugged Bishop Fellay's office or whereever it was that the interview occurred, but then I thought, of  the havoc they could wreak by revealing things said in the confessional.  The lack of trust it would engender, false accusations of breaking the seal, what a nightmare.

The liability for that would be too substantial for them to contemplate that, but I wouldn't put it past some governments to do such things.

Most of the time, the media cooperates with governments schemes. Forgive this anecdotal story that illustrates why I believe this.    I remember years ago some intelligence information pertaining to a hot button issue of the day came my way by accident through a second party one time. (a friend heard from a friend type thing)  I took it with a grain of salt  but kept it in the back of my mind as a possibility.  

Within two weeks, on a specific night, I fell asleep with the television on.  I woke up in the middle of the night to watch what I would describe as  a "charade" go on with the 24 hour cable news channels who were reporting on the "developments."  They played it up big, and suddenly, when I would've seen proof of what they were saying,  and what I was told would have been proven false, they had a technical "problem"  It came back a few minutes later and the reporter on the scene did his supposed best to describe what he had seen.    

I later told this (including details I'm not sharing here ) to a person I know who worked in intelligence and asked the question, "Am I just being conspiratorial?  Was it all just a coincidence?"  This person answered very calmly and bluntly,  "It sounds from what you've described. that you stumbled onto  something that was a genuine operation.  I don't know anything about it specifically.'  And this person would not be able to tell me even if they did know.  

The issue has since disappeared off the media radar, the status quo was kept and a potential long term difficulty was avoided.   And while it would have been a difficulty, the world wouldn't have come to an end had the truth been known, so that tells me just how tightly the lid is ultimately on the media.  Whatever  "it" is that has that kind of control is probably invincible humanly speaking.  Islam will fall, capitalism will fall all solely human philosophies will be toppled.  

I'm convinced the Church will be the only entity that will genuinely "come back from the dead" and the gates of this ill defined, unnamed enemy will not prevail.  And it will probably happen quickly if God is keeping with His "rope a dope" strategy, saving it up for a last round knock out.


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