The sadness of hindsight 45 years ago
#11
The Church looks to you with confidence and love. Rich with a long past ever living in her, and marching on towards HUMAN PERFECTION

This Pope was an embarrassment to the world. And they actually want to canonize that destroyer of the Catholic faith. If it were I I would condemn him as an anti-Pope. I wonder what Masonic lodge he belonged too?
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#12
(12-09-2010, 11:50 AM)timoose Wrote: Ockham, that's not accurate. The "changers" were the "greatest generation" my father's generation from WWII. In 1962 the oldest boomer was sixteen years old, not old enough to say boo ! Moreover not all boomers were actively involved in changing society. You might want to consider the influence of the TV, which effected the later boomers but not their older siblings. In short blaming the boomers for all of the problems in society is like saying all Trad Catholics accept Pope Micahael. There were no boy Cardinals at the Council.
tim

No but the boomers were the ones who throughout the 60's and 70's sat with their thumbs up their ass while guitars were brought in, altars were destroyed, and Rome became full of of heresy all without saying boo.
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#13
Speaking of Baby Boomers, with apologies to Simon and Garfunkel, all I have to say is,

:musicnote:"Where have you gone, Giuseppe Sarto?  Our faithful turn their lonely eyes to you, woo woo woo..." :musicnote: :'(
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#14
(12-09-2010, 07:26 PM)Baskerville Wrote: The Church looks to you with confidence and love. Rich with a long past ever living in her, and marching on towards HUMAN PERFECTION

This Pope was an embarrassment to the world. And they actually want to canonize that destroyer of the Catholic faith. If it were I I would condemn him as an anti-Pope. I wonder what Masonic lodge he belonged too?

John XXIII?  If the quote above is attributable to him about the era of grand transformations, I can no longer give him any benefit of the doubt whatsoever!  I have always thought it was incredibly STUPID to call a Council with the potential of shaking the unshakeable Rock during such a turbulent time as the 1960s.  I had forced myself of late to view him a bit more generously by giving him the benefit of the doubt that perhaps it wasn't clear yet what the 1960s were shaping up to be.  But apparently he had a strong awareness.  I can't help but dislike him more than Paul VI.  Had he not called the Council (or better yet not been elected), then perhaps the modernists influence could have been kept restrained.
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#15
(12-10-2010, 12:56 AM)OHCA Wrote:
(12-09-2010, 07:26 PM)Baskerville Wrote: The Church looks to you with confidence and love. Rich with a long past ever living in her, and marching on towards HUMAN PERFECTION

This Pope was an embarrassment to the world. And they actually want to canonize that destroyer of the Catholic faith. If it were I I would condemn him as an anti-Pope. I wonder what Masonic lodge he belonged too?

John XXIII?  If the quote above is attributable to him about the era of grand transformations, I can no longer give him any benefit of the doubt whatsoever!  I have always thought it was incredibly STUPID to call a Council with the potential of shaking the unshakeable Rock during such a turbulent time as the 1960s.  I had forced myself of late to view him a bit more generously by giving him the benefit of the doubt that perhaps it wasn't clear yet what the 1960s were shaping up to be.  But apparently he had a strong awareness.  I can't help but dislike him more than Paul VI.  Had he not called the Council (or better yet not been elected), then perhaps the modernists influence could have been kept restrained.

No that would be Paul VI.

As some of you may recall John XXIII actually shouted with his dying breath to close the council.
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#16
(12-10-2010, 01:40 AM)Unum Sint Wrote: As some of you may recall John XXIII actually shouted with his dying breath to close the council.

That's a rumor.
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#17
(12-10-2010, 03:32 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(12-10-2010, 01:40 AM)Unum Sint Wrote: As some of you may recall John XXIII actually shouted with his dying breath to close the council.

That's a rumor.

If that really happened, I wonder whether the technical effect would have been council closed, and everything thereafter null and void?  That is, is a pope orally directing closure of the council sufficient such that his command must be carried out, thus depriving the rest of the council actions of legitimate authority?  I wonder how much effort was put into substantiating this assertion that JXXIII said this?
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#18
(12-10-2010, 07:37 PM)OHCA Wrote:
(12-10-2010, 03:32 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(12-10-2010, 01:40 AM)Unum Sint Wrote: As some of you may recall John XXIII actually shouted with his dying breath to close the council.

That's a rumor.

If that really happened, I wonder whether the technical effect would have been council closed, and everything thereafter null and void?  That is, is a pope orally directing closure of the council sufficient such that his command must be carried out, thus depriving the rest of the council actions of legitimate authority?  I wonder how much effort was put into substantiating this assertion that JXXIII said this?

Actually, the rumor is he shouted: "stop the council" rather than "close the council", but we can assume the narrower "close the council" for the sake of argument.

Assuming what you say is correct, Paul VI would just have re-convened it.  In other words, the council did in fact continue with the blessing of a(nother) Pope, so it's a moot point.
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#19
Here's the deal the boomers were sparse until those born after 1950. Those born before were few, because the soldiers didn't think about settling down until their unemployment and GI bill benefits ran out. The ones born in 1950 were 21 in 1971. They were teenagers during the changes, and were not mature enough to complain or be taken seriously. What priest would listen to a fourteen year old kid complain about the Mass ? The boomers are an easy target because all the liberal politicians are that age. But even they were apprentices coming up in 1970. These were the kids stuffing envelopes, and getting coffee.The changes were instituted by our father's generation, not by snot nosed kids.What you need is a longer view. Liberalism in the Church has been coming from the late 1800's. No boomers were involved. The progressive movement in America is from that time and important Cardinals like Cardinal Spellman was one of them. The devil has been working on this particular plan for the last hundred years or so, it's just that the results began to accelerate in the early 70's until today. Many that left the Church left because there was no way to effect a return to Tradition, and had no idea what to do. The ones that stayed and that's only fifty percent have either liked it from the outset or have become inured to it all.
tim   
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#20
According to Fr. Malachi Martin the rumor is that John XXIII said, "This is no longer my council." 
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