Doctor is trying to kill my aunt
#11
:pray:
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#12
:pray: (also for the "doctor")
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#13
I've been monitoring my aunt for a month, now. 

She's intubated with oxygen supplying her one good lung.  Her heart's efficiency is hovering around 11%.  They're considering traching her (cutting a hole in her neck and supplying her air through that tube.)  They keep her knocked out constantly.  They've been giving her atavan (spelling?) on and off since she first arrived--and I hate that drug, as I've witnessed that it makes people go crazy and lose their minds.

Today, I started to question the nurse for details.  I wanted to catch up on what was going on with my aunt's situation.  But the more questions and the more details I asked about, the more nervous ticks the nurse displayed.  I could see the impatience bleed out of her every mannerism. 

When I asked what would help in the case of my aunt, she stated: "She would need invasive work performed on her in a cath lab, for which she does not qualify."

The more I stood there, trying to think and ponder a question in hopes of taking my aunt's health into a positive direction, the nurse became ever-the-more impatient and stated: "What she really needs is pallative care."

Another nurse butted in--probably had "watched" over my aunt--and she said: "Yeah, what she needs is a hospice."

When my aunt is not sedated to madness, she is coherent and communicative.  These nurses and doctors are keeping her down until she dies, rather than keeping her alive and looking for a way to improve her lot.

I've seen this before with other family members.  I'm tired of substandard medical practicioners.  When it comes to preserving the lives of their patients, they display no awareness for the gravity of other's lives.  And I often wonder if some day these people will end up in a hospital like my family members, in which everyone gives up on them. 

My aunt wants to live.
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#14
:pray2: :pray2:
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#15
Laramie,
You and your aunt and your whole family are in my prayers. I'm sorry I didn't spot this thread sooner. So many doctors nowadays just want to euthanize everyone, I hate going near a hospital. God bless and hang in!

C.
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#16
:pray2: for your aunt, that God either heals her or that she has a good death.

:pray2: for you...since it is obvious that you need to relax...and stop looking for a conspiracy that does not exist

and also:
:pray2: for the doctors & nurses who are caring for her...doing exactly what they are morally bound to do...help her to experience as little discomfort as possible in her last days...and for the strength they need to put up with family members who 1) think MDs & RNs are just trying to kill everyone, 2) insist on prolonging the suffering of their beloved, and 3) refuse the good advice of medical caretakers.

Laramie, life is precious...but we are not called to preserve life at all cost.  You need to accept the fact that your aunt is very near her end...and that sometimes the best thing we can do is stop putting them through medical intervention after medical intervention in an effort to keep them from dying...but instead allow their disease to take its course.  Giving meds to assuage pain & discomfort is not against Church teaching...even should it somewhat hasten death (as in giving morphine); in fact, doctors and nurses are morally obliged to relieve a patient's pain as well as possible...even if it means constant sedation.  Your family should seriously consider moving your aunt to hospice care...and signing a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order...especially if your aunt is elderly since should she code chest compressions will very likely result in broken ribs and only needlessly increase her suffering...and increase her chance at contracting a nasty infection.

Call a priest...to administer Extreme Unction...and keep praying...since despite the fact that doctors & nurses cannot effect miracles...God can do all things.
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#17
(01-01-2011, 09:11 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote: I've been monitoring my aunt for a month, now. 

She's intubated with oxygen supplying her one good lung.  Her heart's efficiency is hovering around 11%.  They're considering traching her (cutting a hole in her neck and supplying her air through that tube.)  They keep her knocked out constantly.  They've been giving her atavan (spelling?) on and off since she first arrived--and I hate that drug, as I've witnessed that it makes people go crazy and lose their minds.

It is common to keep intubated adults drugged. In fact, during CPR if intubation is required you have to wait for the person to go unconscious first, as you cannot intubate a conscious adult. The natural reaction is to pull the tube out. That is why, too, you will often see intubated patients with their hands restrained. Even when they are "out of it" they will unconsciously try to pull the tube out.

If your aunt only has one good lung and her heart efficiency is so low, then her chances of being able to be successfully extubated are very slim. Often times a "trial" extubation is done, to see how the patient handles it. If they are considering a trach, then it sounds like your aunt cannot handle breathing without a ventilator anymore. Generally the next step is to find a nursing home that can accept ventilator patients; usually Social Work gets involved at this point. Intubated patients cannot stay in a hospital indefinitely, especially if there is not good prognosis for recovery.

Today, I started to question the nurse for details.  I wanted to catch up on what was going on with my aunt's situation.  But the more questions and the more details I asked about, the more nervous ticks the nurse displayed.  I could see the impatience bleed out of her every mannerism. 

When I asked what would help in the case of my aunt, she stated: "She would need invasive work performed on her in a cath lab, for which she does not qualify."

The more I stood there, trying to think and ponder a question in hopes of taking my aunt's health into a positive direction, the nurse became ever-the-more impatient and stated: "What she really needs is pallative care."

Another nurse butted in--probably had "watched" over my aunt--and she said: "Yeah, what she needs is a hospice."

While it's unfortunate that you felt that the nurses were being impatient or short with you, it's also very frustrating for health care workers to deal with family members who cannot seem to understand, no matter how many explanations are given, that there is really nothing more that can be done for a patient other than palliative care. Your aunt's health (or rather, lack of it)  rules out more aggressive measures.

When my aunt is not sedated to madness, she is coherent and communicative.  These nurses and doctors are keeping her down until she dies, rather than keeping her alive and looking for a way to improve her lot.

Nurses and doctors want their patients to improve, despite what you may think. It can be very upsetting when a patient dies, and if there are several deaths on a unit at one time it gets everyone down.

I've seen this before with other family members.  I'm tired of substandard medical practicioners.  When it comes to preserving the lives of their patients, they display no awareness for the gravity of other's lives.  And I often wonder if some day these people will end up in a hospital like my family members, in which everyone gives up on them. 

My aunt wants to live.

Just because the medical team isn't doing what you want them to do, or think they should do, doesn't mean they are giving substandard care. Your aunt has one lung that requires artificial ventilation and a bad heart. Her health isn't good enough for her to undergo other treatments. They're keeping her alive ... which is all that they probably can do at this point. Medicine isn't magic.

My prayers for you and your aunt.  :pray2:
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#18
As my pastor pointed out some time ago, "palliative care" as it is practiced in the USA, quite often amounts to euthanasia. These patients are usually connected only to morphine and are denied hydration and nutrition. Palliative care without at least hydration is immoral. If your aunt wants to live then she has the right to extraordinary means. She is the primary decision maker here. There may be no moral obligation to use extraordinary means, BUT it is not wrong or immoral to use extraordinary means.
My mother died in palliative care but thanks to two conscientious priests she continued to receive hydration. Which would not have happened otherwise, and this was at a "Catholic" hospital.
Contrary to what some are saying here the "health care professionals" in this case are not doing their job. If the patient wants to live then the nurses and doctors need to SHUT UP and do their job. They should not be pressuring the patient or family members into any other course of action.

C.
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#19
:pray2:
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#20
(01-11-2011, 07:41 PM)Cetil Wrote: As my pastor pointed out some time ago, "palliative care" as it is practiced in the USA, quite often amounts to euthanasia. These patients are usually connected only to morphine and are denied hydration and nutrition. Palliative care without at least hydration is immoral. If your aunt wants to live then she has the right to extraordinary means. She is the primary decision maker here. There may be no moral obligation to use extraordinary means, BUT it is not wrong or immoral to use extraordinary means.
My mother died in palliative care but thanks to two conscientious priests she continued to receive hydration. Which would not have happened otherwise, and this was at a "Catholic" hospital.
Contrary to what some are saying here the "health care professionals" in this case are not doing their job. If the patient wants to live then the nurses and doctors need to SHUT UP and do their job. They should not be pressuring the patient or family members into any other course of action.

C.


LH won't listen to Scipio...but here I go anyway...Ceti is just plain wrong here.  The Docs and RNs ARE doing their job by continuing to suggest the PROPER course of action in their eyes....and it seems it probably is so...one lung...needs a trach...EF of 11%----that's really low a normal EF is about 60% + 5%

how many pressors she's on...2,3 or 4 --- don't answer...because I really don't want to know...it's more for you than me.

3 is pretty much it

In my ICU we use Levo, dopamine and Dobutamine.  Epi in emergencies....but also as a last ditch...if she's maxed out or close and on multiple pressors...wow...

In that case and if she is old.  DNR or partial DNR (at the very least NO COMPRESSIONS) is really the best option and hospice.  It is not euthanasia despite what some ignorant priest says.  A morphine drip for pain is the treatment of choice in that case as it should be.

Everything UD and FW said is true here.


Especially in light of probable co-morbidities which you have not and probably should not divulge here.


And I will add that when I do compressions on old people I break almost EVERY rib.  On young folks I break MANY ribs...it is the only way to ensure enough blood moves...and that, if the pt is not sufficiently covered by pain meds IS AGONIZING if they ever wake up.


So, all that said, prayers that your aunt gets the graces she needs and everyone else involved gets the graces they need...this is America...the best health care in the world.....it ain't a conspiracy.


I would wake her up, ask her what she wants (if she really is able to make decisions---which may be questionable at this point---if she can't next of kin then) AFTER the situation and consequences are fully explained.

I would probably take her home on a drip if she were my wife and that were an option..
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