Doctor is trying to kill my aunt
#21
(01-12-2011, 06:47 PM)Scipio_a Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 07:41 PM)Cetil Wrote: As my pastor pointed out some time ago, "palliative care" as it is practiced in the USA, quite often amounts to euthanasia. These patients are usually connected only to morphine and are denied hydration and nutrition. Palliative care without at least hydration is immoral. If your aunt wants to live then she has the right to extraordinary means. She is the primary decision maker here. There may be no moral obligation to use extraordinary means, BUT it is not wrong or immoral to use extraordinary means.
My mother died in palliative care but thanks to two conscientious priests she continued to receive hydration. Which would not have happened otherwise, and this was at a "Catholic" hospital.
Contrary to what some are saying here the "health care professionals" in this case are not doing their job. If the patient wants to live then the nurses and doctors need to SHUT UP and do their job. They should not be pressuring the patient or family members into any other course of action.

C.


LH won't listen to Scipio...but here I go anyway...Ceti is just plain wrong here.  The Docs and RNs ARE doing their job by continuing to suggest the PROPER course of action in their eyes....and it seems it probably is so...one lung...needs a trach...EF of 11%----that's really low a normal EF is about 60% + 5%

how many pressors she's on...2,3 or 4 --- don't answer...because I really don't want to know...it's more for you than me.

3 is pretty much it

In my ICU we use Levo, dopamine and Dobutamine.  Epi in emergencies....but also as a last ditch...if she's maxed out or close and on multiple pressors...wow...

In that case and if she is old.  DNR or partial DNR (at the very least NO COMPRESSIONS) is really the best option and hospice.  It is not euthanasia despite what some ignorant priest says.  A morphine drip for pain is the treatment of choice in that case as it should be.

Everything UD and FW said is true here.


Especially in light of probable co-morbidities which you have not and probably should not divulge here.


And I will add that when I do compressions on old people I break almost EVERY rib.  On young folks I break MANY ribs...it is the only way to ensure enough blood moves...and that, if the pt is not sufficiently covered by pain meds IS AGONIZING if they ever wake up.


So, all that said, prayers that your aunt gets the graces she needs and everyone else involved gets the graces they need...this is America...the best health care in the world.....it ain't a conspiracy.


I would wake her up, ask her what she wants (if she really is able to make decisions---which may be questionable at this point---if she can't next of kin then) AFTER the situation and consequences are fully explained.

I would probably take her home on a drip if she were my wife and that were an option..

LH would be smart not to listen. Before you start slandering priests you need to get properly versed in what the Church would say. I gather you didn't read the earliest post LH made. The patient wants to live. The job of the nurses and the docs is to abide by that decision and NOT pressure family members into anything else. You make a post on what should be done with NO reference whatsoever to moral theology. Pretty BIZARRE.
Sorry, but John Paul II ruled that ordinary hydration and nutrition must be maintained. Morphine drip is OK, but NOT by itself.
From the pope:
" "The sick person in a vegetative state, awaiting recovery or a natural end, still has the right to basic health care (nutrition, hydration, cleanliness, warmth, etc.), and to the prevention of complications related to his confinement to bed . . . Death by starvation or dehydration is, in fact, the only possible outcome as a result of their withdrawal. In this sense it ends up becoming, if done knowingly and willingly, true and proper euthanasia by omission." -- Pope John Paul II, 2004"
You are the ignorant one.

C.

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#22
:pray: for you and your family Laramie.


To the rest of mah peeps, I know this is an interesting discussion but please make a seperate thread for it and don't turn someone's prayer request into an argument. Love in Christ, Kimberly  :)
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#23
(01-13-2011, 10:01 PM)Cetil Wrote: LH would be smart not to listen....


Well the above is a pretty clear indication of inability.

We as trads know we need to question priest.  From what ceti said it's clear his priest is ignorant about such topic...and finally ceti clearly has no idea about any of this or how to argue since no one on the thread suggested pulling hydration or even TPN or feeding of any nature.   Now if withdrawal of are where the right course...her MDs and RNs would suggest that as a possibility as well'

As for a person wanting to live...you know...we only have so much say....and then we die....

and finally...JP2 ain't much of a reference.


All of what has been put forward by UD, FW and myself is fully in line with Church teaching....torture is not!


-------------------


Sorry Kim but the OP is preposterous especially on the heels of a similar first OP that is sensationalized and fraught with false ideas.  The OP needs to be told all this so that he can rest at ease and help his family make the right decisions without the poison that is feeding hysteria.
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#24
(01-13-2011, 10:15 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: Well the above is a pretty clear indication of inability.

We as trads know we need to question priest.  From what ceti said it's clear his priest is ignorant about such topic...and finally ceti clearly has no idea about any of this or how to argue since no one on the thread suggested pulling hydration or even TPN or feeding of any nature.   Now if withdrawal of are where the right course...her MDs and RNs would suggest that as a possibility as well'

As for a person wanting to live...you know...we only have so much say....and then we die....

and finally...JP2 ain't much of a reference.


All of what has been put forward by UD, FW and myself is fully in line with Church teaching....torture is not!

Why is the priest "ignorant"? All he did was to say that nutrition and hydration are part of palliative care. You seem to agree with that.  But in most hospitals in the US, patients are given only morphine. So I see no reason to attack the priest.
This is a marvelous turn of phrase:  "withdrawal of are where the right course"? Excuse me,  is that supposed to be English? It barely approaches coherence. JP 2 is a better reference than you any day of the week. English was a second language for him. I'm having trouble figuring out what your first language is.

C.
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#25
(01-13-2011, 10:12 PM)kimbaichan Wrote: I know this is an interesting discussion but please make a seperate thread for it and don't turn someone's prayer request into an argument.

Good point, and I apologize for not enforcing my own general request on this.

From here out, let's just see :pray: and people can start another thread, not about the aunt specifically, please, but when palliative care, etc., is appropriate.
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#26
Holy Crap...

Just checked in to this thread, as I'm out of the country.  I appreciate the advice folks, but prayers is all.  With my family members, I hold out for miracles.  I work in the field, and I'm aware of the small medical details like broken ribs from compressions and the necessity of the ventilator, the straps and all that.  I didn't think it neccessary to write it all, and I wasn't tryin' to do a book or anything like that. 

Thanks for keeping us in your thoughts.  And again, we could start another thread somewhere else if we wanna discuss this kind of thing.  But please, I figured this was a safe topic folder to post in.  Save argumentation for another topic folder.

Thanks for thinking of us, everyone. 

-Laramie
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