Restore the minor orders!
#81
I generally agree with the idea of restoring minor orders to regular parish life (though seeing them returned to the entire Latin Church is a more pressing concern). That said, if you're going to force your altar servers to chant in the choir and to attend vespers, I reckon that you will be very short of servers and thus of prospective minor clerics.
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#82
(01-21-2011, 01:00 AM)Christus Imperat Wrote: HK:
Here is an interesting passage I just found from St. John Chrysostom's work On the Priesthood, Book III
(abridged from the original citation)

The divine law indeed has excluded women from the ministry, but they endeavor to thrust themselves into it; and since they can effect nothing of themselves, they do all through the agency of others; and they have become invested with so much power that they can appoint or eject priests at their will: things in fact are turned upside down, and the proverbial saying may be seen realized— "The ruled lead the rulers:" and would that it were men who do this instead of women, who have not received a commission to teach. Why do I say teach? For the blessed Paul did not suffer them even to speak in the Church. But I have heard some one say that they have obtained such a large privilege of free speech, as even to rebuke the prelates of the Churches, and censure them more severely than masters do their own domestics.
[/quote]

Sounds like the tales of some rectory houskeepers I remember hearing, from back in the 1950's  :laughing:
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#83
(01-22-2011, 02:11 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: I generally agree with the idea of restoring minor orders to regular parish life (though seeing them returned to the entire Latin Church is a more pressing concern). That said, if you're going to force your altar servers to chant in the choir and to attend vespers, I reckon that you will be very short of servers and thus of prospective minor clerics.

Then they're not worthy, duh.

But seriously, singing is the easier task. Or rather, singing chant well is difficult, but sitting in choir and very softly singing the chant is much easier than serving at the altar, although both tasks are related. The first should be learned before graduating to the next.
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#84
HK, if you become a Bishop, and get a diocese, and I'm still alive, I'll be moving there. The more I think about restoring the monor orders the more I see the good coming from it.
tim
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#85
(01-22-2011, 08:05 AM)timoose Wrote: HK, if you become a Bishop, and get a diocese, and I'm still alive, I'll be moving there. The more I think about restoring the monor orders the more I see the good coming from it.
tim

That would rock!  :metal:

I just read this in Michael Davies's Cranmer's Godly Order last night, in reference to Anglican suppression of the true priesthood:

Canons on the Sacrament of Holy Orders

Canon 2. --If anyone says, that, besides the priesthood, there are not in the Catholic Church other orders, both greater and minor, by which, as by certain steps, advance is made unto the priesthood; let him be anathema.
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#86
Thanks for the vote of confidence, I suppose.

If I were bishop of a diocese, this is what I'd do:

-First of all, celebrate pontifical solemn Mass at the cathedral at least once every Sunday, televised to the local version of EWTN.

-Second, establish an order of canons regular for the cathedral; perhaps out of traditional priests who've been shunned or exiled from their native dioceses and need to be relocated. Their job would be to assist at my traditional Masses and sing the Office at all the hours at the cathedral. The cathedral would be the model for all parishes to imitate, as far as the liturgy is concerned.

-Third, take charge over the permanent diaconate. I'd appoint my most trusted deacon as archdeacon and, essentially, chancellor of the diocese. I'd reserve all new full-time jobs at the chancery for deacons first, and have mandatory workshops on all sorts of things from liturgy to preaching to proper ministry and how to wear clerical dress properly. I wouldn't trust priests to follow my directives well, but deacons are more likely to as long as they're properly trained.

-Fourth is, of course, restoring the minor orders as I've said. For all parishes and chapels with the traditional Mass, I'd receive their servers at the cathedral for workshops and ordination. For the Novus Ordo, I suppose I'd have to rely on the instituted ministries, but that's better than nothing.
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#87
(01-22-2011, 04:58 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: -First of all, celebrate pontifical solemn Mass at the cathedral at least once every Sunday, televised to the local version of EWTN.

EVERY Sunday? :o  Even in prior times, wasn't this reserved for more special occasions?

Quote:-Fourth is, of course, restoring the minor orders as I've said.

Does a bishop have the authority to do that?  I was under the impression that he doesn't.
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#88
(01-24-2011, 12:06 PM)cgraye Wrote:
(01-22-2011, 04:58 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: -First of all, celebrate pontifical solemn Mass at the cathedral at least once every Sunday, televised to the local version of EWTN.

EVERY Sunday? :o  Even in prior times, wasn't this reserved for more special occasions?

Quote:-Fourth is, of course, restoring the minor orders as I've said.

Does a bishop have the authority to do that?  I was under the impression that he doesn't.

You'd have to look into the '87 Code; however, it seems the Bishop could restored the minor orders simply by ordaining people to them.  The FSSP, ICR, SSPX etc have minor orders, so it is hard to see how a Bishop could possibly be barred from making use of the minor orders.

Part of HK's point, as I take it, is that "prior times" (meaning the Roman Church in the decades before the Council) are not necessarily the ideal which we want to recreate. 

Liturgical authority was concentrated in the hands of the Pope after the Council of Trent.  Prior to that, Bishops in the local diocese exercised a lot of authority over the liturgy.

Clearly this discussion is academic, in the sense that, while HK is a Bishop in potentia, the probability of him becoming a Bishop in actu is nil, more's the pity.
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#89
(01-24-2011, 12:29 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: You'd have to look into the '87 Code; however, it seems the Bishop could restored the minor orders simply by ordaining people to them.  The FSSP, ICR, SSPX etc have minor orders, so it is hard to see how a Bishop could possibly be barred from making use of the minor orders.

It was the pope who suppressed them in the first place, and those groups in communion with Rome who continue to use them do so with permission from Rome.  I don't think a bishop could just decide to use them in his diocese on his own.

Quote:Part of HK's point, as I take it, is that "prior times" (meaning the Roman Church in the decades before the Council) are not necessarily the ideal which we want to recreate. 

Liturgical authority was concentrated in the hands of the Pope after the Council of Trent.  Prior to that, Bishops in the local diocese exercised a lot of authority over the liturgy.

Yeah, but those days are gone and aren't coming back.  Bishops needed to have more autonomy about almost everything back then because of the nature of communication.  We have fast communication anywhere in the world now, so things are going to be a lot more consistent.
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#90
It would be bizarre, given the sort of things that Bishops are allowed to do these days, if the Pope told a Bishop "No, you may not ordain men to the minor orders."  It is the sort of request that I imagine the Pope simply does not hear these days.

Much of this thread has been concerned with the diaconate.  The permission is already there for ordaining deacons; it is simply a matter of what to do with them and how to form them. 

In HK's imaginary diocese, I imagine a lot of traditional young men, without vocations to the priesthood, being interested in the diaconate.
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