Smoking a sin?
#21
(01-05-2011, 10:36 PM)PsychoMonkey Wrote:
Rosarium Wrote:Or the person who seals themselves in a room with a running car...

I'm guessing if the person were purposefully trying to kill themselves then, yes. If you smoke to excess in hopes of killing yourself then it would absolutely be a mortal sin. People who enjoy wine could be accused of killing themselves because they are slowly pickling their livers. People who fly could be putting themselves in an unneeded risk. Same for people who get out on the road and drive. People who eat from glass bowls could be putting themselves in an unneeded risk as the bowl could chip and they could swallow glass and die.

Where does it end?

Let me put it this way, one won't find smoking as something desirable in any writings of the saints.

While we are not able to be perfect in an instant, we should not deny the evils, however minor, of things we may do. Once we start justifying evil, it just builds.
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#22
Okay, here is another question. I live in Connecticut and go to boarding school. It may seem like an unlikely combination, but everyone there smokes marijuana incessantly. They are not addicted, however; they can go a day, a week or 5 months without it. Marijuana has not been proved harmful to the body and is actually used for its all-natural health benefits as a medicine. Now, I am not in anyway advocating or lobbying for marijuana's legalization or anything, but because it is illegal, does that in itself make it a mortal sin to partake in smoking it?
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#23
(01-05-2011, 10:49 PM)Madeformv Wrote: Okay, here is another question. I live in Connecticut and go to boarding school. It may seem like an unlikely combination, but everyone there smokes marijuana incessantly. They are not addicted, however; they can go a day, a week or 5 months without it. Marijuana has not been proved harmful to the body and is actually used for its all-natural health benefits as a medicine. Now, I am not in anyway advocating or lobbying for marijuana's legalization or anything, but because it is illegal, does that in itself make it a mortal sin to partake in smoking it?

The sinfulness of using substances does not only take into account the addictive qualities and the law, but the effects on the will.

Intoxication is clearly a grave matter.
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#24
Rosarium Wrote:Let me put it this way, one won't find smoking as something desirable in any writings of the saints.

While we are not able to be perfect in an instant, we should not deny the evils, however minor, of things we may do. Once we start justifying evil, it just builds.

Ok, I'm admitting upfront that I don't know this. Do we find anything in the writing of the saints period that discusses smoking specifically? I'm don't think I've ever heard this, but I'm not sure.

I agree 100% that once we start justifying eve, it builds, but where is it said that smoking was evil? I think many people describe smoking as wrong due to personal opinions more than anything. I don't know, maybe it's just me.
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#25
Rosarium, one of the greatest saints Padre Pio, could fly, see a soul's sins in confession, and bi-locate, and the way they knew he had been there is the residue of cigarette smoke. The GI's brought him supplies of American Beer and Cigarettes, and on Sunday  he shared them with those GI's which had gone to Mass. He had a good fun time hanging with the GI's, I've seen the pictures of him smiling, and looking as if he was ribbing the GI's.  So Saints do smoke, just so you know. I'm with Mother Angelica on this deal, when she said God has a special place in Purgatory for hagiographers because of their sanitizing so much of the detail in Saint's lives to create the impression they were nearly perfect. Jesus walked on water, we swim, and get wet.
tim
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#26
(01-05-2011, 11:45 PM)PsychoMonkey Wrote:
Rosarium Wrote:Let me put it this way, one won't find smoking as something desirable in any writings of the saints.

While we are not able to be perfect in an instant, we should not deny the evils, however minor, of things we may do. Once we start justifying evil, it just builds.

Ok, I'm admitting upfront that I don't know this. Do we find anything in the writing of the saints period that discusses smoking specifically? I'm don't think I've ever heard this, but I'm not sure.

I agree 100% that once we start justifying eve, it builds, but where is it said that smoking was evil? I think many people describe smoking as wrong due to personal opinions more than anything. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

Two popes were against it strongly.

The Church does not go around condemning individual manifestations. Intoxication is already addressed.

It isn't personal opinion that:

* Smoking affects the body and mind
* Can be highly addictive
* Has no useful purpose in most cases ("smoking" in this case being broadly used)

This alone is enough. It is not opinion to think if one sacrifices their will for the sake of regularly inhaling burning materials, it is wrong.

The use of the substances have changed. However, one finds the entire industry driven by:

* Addiction
* Greed (the companies which get paid to get people addicted to their products for life)

It is a good business in this sense. What other industry has a steady supply of people who will regularly dish out whatever the cost happens to be to get things which are cheap to make and have no useful purpose? No other type of crop gets this kind of profit.
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#27
(01-06-2011, 08:01 AM)timoose Wrote: Rosarium, one of the greatest saints Padre Pio, could fly, see a soul's sins in confession, and bi-locate, and the way they knew he had been there is the residue of cigarette smoke. The GI's brought him supplies of American Beer and Cigarettes, and on Sunday  he shared them with those GI's which had gone to Mass. He had a good fun time hanging with the GI's, I've seen the pictures of him smiling, and looking as if he was ribbing the GI's.  So Saints do smoke, just so you know. I'm with Mother Angelica on this deal, when she said God has a special place in Purgatory for hagiographers because of their sanitizing so much of the detail in Saint's lives to create the impression they were nearly perfect. Jesus walked on water, we swim, and get wet.
tim

One of the greatest saints, Saint John the Baptist, withdrew from the world and prepared the coming of Our Lord. He did not do it by caving into the desires of the flesh.

Yes, the saints are human and have their faults. However, these faults must be recognised as faults, otherwise, we are devoted to humans, not God.

Smoking is probably a minor moral topic, but it was brought up here. There are bigger things, and there are smaller things, but it is foolish to justify what is not good.

Is smoking good? No? Then it is bad. It may not be a major concern (well, it is for those who die slow painful deaths after years of using such things), but it is bad.
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#28
(01-06-2011, 08:01 AM)timoose Wrote: Rosarium, one of the greatest saints Padre Pio, could fly, see a soul's sins in confession, and bi-locate, and the way they knew he had been there is the residue of cigarette smoke. The GI's brought him supplies of American Beer and Cigarettes, and on Sunday  he shared them with those GI's which had gone to Mass. He had a good fun time hanging with the GI's, I've seen the pictures of him smiling, and looking as if he was ribbing the GI's.  So Saints do smoke, just so you know. I'm with Mother Angelica on this deal, when she said God has a special place in Purgatory for hagiographers because of their sanitizing so much of the detail in Saint's lives to create the impression they were nearly perfect. Jesus walked on water, we swim, and get wet.
tim

Thank you. That sounds like a sensible response

(01-06-2011, 09:42 AM)Rosarium Wrote: One of the greatest saints, Saint John the Baptist, withdrew from the world and prepared the coming of Our Lord. He did not do it by caving into the desires of the flesh.

Yes, the saints are human and have their faults. However, these faults must be recognised as faults, otherwise, we are devoted to humans, not God.

Smoking is probably a minor moral topic, but it was brought up here. There are bigger things, and there are smaller things, but it is foolish to justify what is not good.

Is smoking good? No? Then it is bad. It may not be a major concern (well, it is for those who die slow painful deaths after years of using such things), but it is bad.

So now it is a minor moral topic?  I thought it was a mortal sin?  :P

I don't know why I'm defending cigarette smoking.  I just don't think a moderate use of tobacco is any more harmful than most things in life.  I don't smoke anymore because it is pointless and expensive but when I did, I really enjoyed it.  At worst, I felt like it was a crutch - something to turn to when I was bored, agitated or wanted to be unapproachable in social settings.

Someone reaching for a cigarette to calm their nerves (and yes, I know it is a  stimulant) seems no worse than someone reaching for a cup of coffee when they are tired.  Like I've said before, living in a city is worse for your lungs than smoking several cigarettes a day.  We're all going to die of something.  Just like someone who eats a modern sugary, salty, greasy diet will probably develop heart disease.  If you develop neurological problems, will your vegan diet be considered sinful?  You knew the risks and decided to eat twigs and berries anyway.


Don't answer that.  I wasn't being 100% serious and I don't have the time to argue with you  :tiphat:
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#29
(01-06-2011, 01:31 PM)Paloma Wrote: So now it is a minor moral topic?  I thought it was a mortal sin?   :P
It is a grave matter, I said. The conditions for it to be a mortal sin were stated already. My post is referencing it relative to other things, which takes into account the intent and knowledge and other decisions a person faces.

We are supposed to be Catholics here who are rational. The "this act is a mortal sin or not" is for people who don't know what they are talking about.

Quote:I don't know why I'm defending cigarette smoking.  I just don't think a moderate use of tobacco is any more harmful than most things in life.   I don't smoke anymore because it is pointless and expensive but when I did, I really enjoyed it.  At worst, I felt like it was a crutch - something to turn to when I was bored, agitated or wanted to be unapproachable in social settings.
I do not know why you are defending it either. One must be careful of defending vices too strongly.

Quote:Someone reaching for a cigarette to calm their nerves (and yes, I know it is a  stimulant) seems no worse than someone reaching for a cup of coffee when they are tired.  Like I've said before, living in a city is worse for your lungs than smoking several cigarettes a day.
They don't calm nerves. It sates and addiction. This would not be a mortal sin (the act of smoking) and probably not even a sin at all for most cases, but at its heart, it is a grave matter and defending it removes all the mitigating factors.

Quote:  We're all going to die of something.  Just like someone who eats a modern sugary, salty, greasy diet will probably develop heart disease.  If you develop neurological problems, will your vegan diet be considered sinful?  You knew the risks and decided to eat twigs and berries anyway.
This doesn't make any sense. If you do not want to discuss this topic, then don't. There is no reason to resort to such nonsense. Vegan diets (indeed, most diets), do not interfere with the nervous system. Some nutritional deficiencies can result in such damage (usually, B vitamin deficiencies), but this is usually a result of some other disorder (a digestive or absorption disorder) or malnutrition. I don't eat "twigs and berries".

And yes, it is a grave matter to cause harm to one's body, but again, like all such things, it depends on intent and knowledge. The body is not like a car, it has great tolerances for expected environmental stress, and dietary substances are a part of this. The body was always designed to ingest things which contain things which could hurt the body. And technically speaking, everything we eat does contribute to our deaths (through oxidation) which is possibly why low calorie diets are the only way to increase life spans.

This however is food. Even "bad" food gives something to the body usually, even if just be hydration or energy.

I do not know why this is to controversial. If the cultural or person acclimations to smoking such things were not present, would people be so concerned about defending the inhalation of burning substances as a matter of habit? It is objectively a grave matter, and therefore, a potential mortal sin. Everything which can be a sin, is a potential mortal sin.

Quote:Don't answer that.  I wasn't being 100% serious and I don't have the time to argue with you   :tiphat:
Do you really expect giving such responses, and then saying you don't want a response is rational? Would you say "oh, ok. I'll let that go for the world to read."?

If you didn't want to seriously discuss an on-going topic, then why did you discuss it?

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#30
(01-06-2011, 08:01 AM)timoose Wrote: Rosarium, one of the greatest saints Padre Pio, could fly, see a soul's sins in confession, and bi-locate, and the way they knew he had been there is the residue of cigarette smoke. The GI's brought him supplies of American Beer and Cigarettes, and on Sunday  he shared them with those GI's which had gone to Mass. tim

Is this true?  Not that I'm questioning your honesty.  I just never heard this before.  Very interesting...and amusing.  My understanding of smoking has been that it is no different than drinking or eating.  The act is not itself sinful.  Excessive smoking, drinking or eating might be.  There is actually a study that claims moderate pipe smokers--on average--live longer!
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