Smoking a sin?
#31
Yes, I read it in books written by the GI's that knew him back then. S. Padre Pio flew up to the bombers and directed them away from San Giovanni Rotunda a few times, the last time the Major in charge of the airfield flew along as he didn't believe the pilots. The smoke comes from him bi-locating from San Giovanni to some GI's homes after the war.
tim
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#32
(01-06-2011, 08:15 PM)Chester Tonic Wrote:
(01-06-2011, 08:01 AM)timoose Wrote: Rosarium, one of the greatest saints Padre Pio, could fly, see a soul's sins in confession, and bi-locate, and the way they knew he had been there is the residue of cigarette smoke. The GI's brought him supplies of American Beer and Cigarettes, and on Sunday  he shared them with those GI's which had gone to Mass. tim

Is this true?  Not that I'm questioning your honesty.  I just never heard this before.  Very interesting...and amusing.  My understanding of smoking has been that it is no different than drinking or eating.  The act is not itself sinful.  Excessive smoking, drinking or eating might be.  There is actually a study that claims moderate pipe smokers--on average--live longer!

One cannot do something "moderately" which has no use. Smoking is not like drinking or eating because it fulfills no nutritional need. Yes, it is lumped together, but might as well add all mouth related activities to the mix.

We are Catholics, not Daoists.
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#33

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One cannot do something "moderately" which has no use. Smoking is not like drinking or eating because it fulfills no nutritional need. Yes, it is lumped together, but might as well add all mouth related activities to the mix.

We are Catholics, not Daoists.
[/quote]


Sorry, this doesn't work for me. So are you saying that drinking wine or whiskey is sinful?  Alcoholic beverages serve no specific nutritional need.  They are consumed for primarily for relaxation. Tobacco can also serve that purpose.
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#34
(01-06-2011, 06:09 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(01-06-2011, 01:31 PM)Paloma Wrote: So now it is a minor moral topic?  I thought it was a mortal sin?   :P
It is a grave matter, I said. The conditions for it to be a mortal sin were stated already. My post is referencing it relative to other things, which takes into account the intent and knowledge and other decisions a person faces.

We are supposed to be Catholics here who are rational. The "this act is a mortal sin or not" is for people who don't know what they are talking about.

Quote:I don't know why I'm defending cigarette smoking.  I just don't think a moderate use of tobacco is any more harmful than most things in life.   I don't smoke anymore because it is pointless and expensive but when I did, I really enjoyed it.  At worst, I felt like it was a crutch - something to turn to when I was bored, agitated or wanted to be unapproachable in social settings.
I do not know why you are defending it either. One must be careful of defending vices too strongly.

Quote:Someone reaching for a cigarette to calm their nerves (and yes, I know it is a  stimulant) seems no worse than someone reaching for a cup of coffee when they are tired.  Like I've said before, living in a city is worse for your lungs than smoking several cigarettes a day.
They don't calm nerves. It sates and addiction. This would not be a mortal sin (the act of smoking) and probably not even a sin at all for most cases, but at its heart, it is a grave matter and defending it removes all the mitigating factors.

Quote:  We're all going to die of something.  Just like someone who eats a modern sugary, salty, greasy diet will probably develop heart disease.  If you develop neurological problems, will your vegan diet be considered sinful?  You knew the risks and decided to eat twigs and berries anyway.
This doesn't make any sense. If you do not want to discuss this topic, then don't. There is no reason to resort to such nonsense. Vegan diets (indeed, most diets), do not interfere with the nervous system. Some nutritional deficiencies can result in such damage (usually, B vitamin deficiencies), but this is usually a result of some other disorder (a digestive or absorption disorder) or malnutrition. I don't eat "twigs and berries".

And yes, it is a grave matter to cause harm to one's body, but again, like all such things, it depends on intent and knowledge. The body is not like a car, it has great tolerances for expected environmental stress, and dietary substances are a part of this. The body was always designed to ingest things which contain things which could hurt the body. And technically speaking, everything we eat does contribute to our deaths (through oxidation) which is possibly why low calorie diets are the only way to increase life spans.

This however is food. Even "bad" food gives something to the body usually, even if just be hydration or energy.

I do not know why this is to controversial. If the cultural or person acclimations to smoking such things were not present, would people be so concerned about defending the inhalation of burning substances as a matter of habit? It is objectively a grave matter, and therefore, a potential mortal sin. Everything which can be a sin, is a potential mortal sin.

Quote:Don't answer that.  I wasn't being 100% serious and I don't have the time to argue with you   :tiphat:
Do you really expect giving such responses, and then saying you don't want a response is rational? Would you say "oh, ok. I'll let that go for the world to read."?

If you didn't want to seriously discuss an on-going topic, then why did you discuss it?

I didn't say "Don't respond."  I said "Don't answer that." in reference to my silly ending question.  Why?  Because I wasn't being serious and I wasn't really asking you to answer.  You didn't even have to humor it with a response.
 
Eh, I'm just putting in my two cents and at some point, discussing it with you becomes tedious because you are never wrong and you are an expert on everything.

you said,

Quote:Objectively, I do not see how it cannot be a mortal sin.

And then, as every single person seemed to somewhat disagree with you, you said,

Quote:Smoking is probably a minor moral topic

Mortal sins aren't minor moral topics.  So which is it?

I also don't think smoking is socially acceptable anymore.  You can't smoke outside, you can't smoke inside, you can't smoke in your cars.  I think cigarette smoke is gross, stinky, and unhealthy in excess but I draw the line at calling it a mortal sin.  It's not.

(01-06-2011, 09:14 PM)Rosarium Wrote: One cannot do something "moderately" which has no use. Smoking is not like drinking or eating because it fulfills no nutritional need. Yes, it is lumped together, but might as well add all mouth related activities to the mix.

We are Catholics, not Daoists.

That's crazy talk.  Of course you can consume alcohol and tobacco moderately.  Do I just feel this way because it is "socially acceptable" (or at least it has been in the past.)  More than likely.   :shrug:

Edited for clarity.







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#35
(01-06-2011, 09:43 PM)Paloma Wrote: Eh, I'm just putting in my two cents and at some point, discussing it with you becomes tedious because you are never wrong and you are an expert on everything.
That is your idea, and with it, you cannot discuss anything with me then.

I've changed my mind on things many times. I've learned many things (evidence of which is on the forum).

Now, I do not cave into cultural values when determining morality when I can help it. Sometimes, this means making decisions which I never thought I'd make, but I hope I never shirk from making them.

Quote:Mortal sins aren't minor moral topics.  So which is it?
All sins can be mortal sins. I answered this above, but I stated that because I think it is a grave matter. That is not the only thing necessary to determine something to be a mortal sin. No act is always a mortal sin. The act is a grave matter.

Quote:I also don't think smoking is socially acceptable anymore.  You can't smoke outside, you can't smoke inside, you can't smoke in your cars.  I think cigarette smoke is gross, stinky, and unhealthy in excess but I draw the line at calling it a mortal sin.  It's not.
It is a grave matter, and can be a mortal sin.

If it were normally illegal or uncommon, then I'd think this would be a short discussion.

You are always referencing local laws, which are not really useful for this discussion. Smoking is socially acceptable in every area one can get things to smoke. Any unnecessary and avoidable instance of inhaling the fumes of such things is in excess. There are things we inhale all the time. Our respiratory system is designed to handle these.

Quote:That's crazy talk.  Of course you can consume alcohol and tobacco moderately.  Do I just feel this way because it is "socially acceptable" (or at least it has been in the past.)  More than likely.   :shrug:
Consume tobacco? I am not sure of the effects of that, but I guess if it has nutritional value, one can eat it. From the little I know of it, I do not think it is something one can eat as it is.

It is not the same. The lungs are not the stomach. Just because it involves the mouth, it doesn't make them related. Eating, fellatio, smoking and tongue piercings are not automatically lumped together and allowed in "moderation" just because they involve the mouth. Smoking is an entirely different process unrelated to consuming food or drink.

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#36
(01-06-2011, 11:20 PM)Rosarium Wrote: It is not the same. The lungs are not the stomach. Just because it involves the mouth, it doesn't make them related. Eating, fellatio, smoking and tongue piercings are not automatically lumped together and allowed in "moderation" just because they involve the mouth. Smoking is an entirely different process unrelated to consuming food or drink.

How about chewing gum?  No nutritional value. Bad for the teeth.  My dentist seems to think it's a sin.

Really though, you commented previously that "we're Catholics not Doaists."  Frankly, you're sounding a lot like a Presbyterian friend of mine.  We're not Puritans either.  A very traditional priest I know smokes a pipe.  Like a former President, pipe smokers don't inhale.  ;D    Cars expel noxious gases that people draw into their lungs.  Is it then a sin to drive a car?  Obviously I am not in agreement with your contention that smoking is, in itself, a sinful activity.  I agree that it can be made sinful, but it is not inherently sinful.  The same can be said about many human activities like eating, sex, drinking alcohol, earning money, etc. 
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#37
You have to excuse Rosarium.  He is an ascetic and seems to think that everyone else should be too.
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#38
OK.  I'll keep that in mind.  I've noticed that he does have a knack for keeping things lively. ;D
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#39
(01-08-2011, 08:30 PM)Chester Tonic Wrote: How about chewing gum?  No nutritional value. Bad for the teeth.  My dentist seems to think it's a sin.
Very good question. "Gum" in this case is vague. Chewing substances without intention of ingesting it can involve several substances.

I do chew gum, but only gum which contains xylitol, because it is known to be very effective for keeping the teeth (and other things) clean. I chew it at work if I eat or drink (things besides water) on breaks.

But the act of chewing gum does have a function (it can facilitate digestion) and the negative effects are not a given (it depends on the type of gum). So, by itself, I do not see how it can be a grave matter.

Quote:Really though, you commented previously that "we're Catholics not Doaists."   Frankly, you're sounding a lot like a Presbyterian friend of mine.  We're not Puritans either.  A very traditional priest I know smokes a pipe.  Like a former President, pipe smokers don't inhale.  ;D     Cars expel noxious gases that people draw into their lungs.  Is it then a sin to drive a car?   Obviously I am not in agreement with your contention that smoking is, in itself, a sinful activity.  I agree that it can be made sinful, but it is not inherently sinful.  The same can be said about many human activities like eating, sex, drinking alcohol, earning money, etc. 

Pipe smokers inhale. Unless they suspend breathing entirely and seal their orifices, it gets inside. I watched a relative who smoked a pipe end up dying because of it.

The issue is purpose. This is what people are forgetting when they bring up these arguments.

Yes, I aspire to be like an ascetic. I do not think everyone should be, but I do think there is danger in belittling or rejecting higher spiritual callings. I used to do that...my realisation that it was wrong is what has led me to be the way I am. Each time I find a significant imperfection in my choices, I try (I hope) to change it.

Here is a blog post of mine explaining such a decision: http://nonpeccabis.blogspot.com/2010/08/...-deus.html

It would be wrong to think others are sinning (or that I am sinning) for failing to fulfill something about which we are not yet knowledgeable or able to fulfill. If however we to do something which we are called to do, or we actively persist in what we know to be imperfect, I think we are in severe danger of actual sin.

Yes, I think many things would be a sin for me to do which are not necessarily sins for everyone equally. In particular, I am highly sensitive to vanity and will avoid it if I can. This may be "extreme" if I fully explained it (usually, I don't, because of the reactions of people who get defensive. I think it is wrong to unnecessarily cause someone to feel compelled to defend an evil). But how can someone who has reached a certain point turn back? Would that not be sinning? Is that cause for making a public accusation of heresy?

I point out we are Catholics, not Daoists, because there is a human tendency to seek the middle. This is not Catholic. Prudence and temperance are virtues. Moderation (in this sense, not as another word for temperance) can be a grave sin.

Accusing someone of Puritanism just because one is uncomfortable with that person's calling is a bit imprudent I think. There are Catholics who would call those who fast on Fridays to be such, aren't there? There are Catholics who would call those who follow the Church's teachings on sexual morality to be such too.

We all are called to God. This calling is personal, and time is limited, so there will be differences in each person.

For those interested, I am not an ascetic, although I think I am called to be like one (I usually think of it as "monastic" though). In my perspective, I have a long way to go and am short of where I think I should be. This will be a part of my confession before Mass. I am weak and easily influenced by the things of this world.
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#40
Considering ID (Father) who is the resident trad priest here in the 'tank, is fine with smoking; I highly doubt that it was a sin.  Or he would have spoken upon it.
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