Communion in the Hand: Sacrilege?
#21
(01-05-2011, 03:49 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: We really go round in circles, don't we?

I don't.
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#22
(01-05-2011, 03:48 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Quit touching the Consecrated Host unless you're hands are consecrated.

POPE PAUL VI (1963-1978). "This method [on the tongue] must be retained." (Apostolic Epistle "Memoriale Domini")

POPE JOHN PAUL II (1978-). "To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained. (Dominicae Cenae, sec. 11)

Here is the paragraph from Dominicae Cenae, sec.11, that you quoted:

To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained, one which indicates an active participation in the ministry of the Eucharist. It is obvious that the Church can grant this faculty to those who are neither priests nor deacons, as is the case with acolytes in the exercise of their ministry, especially if they are destined for future ordination, or with other lay people who are chosen for this to meet a just need, but always after an adequate preparation.
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#23
(01-05-2011, 03:09 PM)Stubborn Wrote: It has always been a teaching of the pre-V2 Church that only consecrated fingers are to touch the consecrated Host. Some of the reasons for this I pasted above.

Not exactly. Deacons may administer Communion in the Tridentine Mass and before Vatican II, and their hands aren't consecrated. There were Communion rites outside of Mass that deacons could lead. Also, subdeacons handle the Eucharist insofar as they purify the vessels, I believe.

Your general point is spot-on, of course, but let's get everything correct here.
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#24
(01-05-2011, 06:08 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: ..... but let's get everything correct here.

Thank you, Harlequin King, that's all I am asking...
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#25
(01-05-2011, 04:26 PM)lumine Wrote:
(01-05-2011, 03:49 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: We really go round in circles, don't we?

I don't.

You're just part of a pattern of people that every now and then pop up asking the same questions, expressing the same doubts and repeating the same arguments over and over again.
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#26
(01-05-2011, 07:39 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-05-2011, 04:26 PM)lumine Wrote:
(01-05-2011, 03:49 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: We really go round in circles, don't we?

I don't.

You're just part of a pattern of people that every now and then pop up asking the same questions, expressing the same doubts and repeating the same arguments over and over again.

Have I asked questions in this thread?  What same questions are you referring to?  I've belonged to the forum for awhile.  I don't post very often, that's true.
If someone presents something as doctrine that is discipline, then yes I might present my thoughts on the matter.  What kind of pattern of people am I part of?
I am Catholic.
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#27
(01-05-2011, 05:10 PM)lumine Wrote:
(01-05-2011, 03:48 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Quit touching the Consecrated Host unless you're hands are consecrated.

POPE PAUL VI (1963-1978). "This method [on the tongue] must be retained." (Apostolic Epistle "Memoriale Domini")

POPE JOHN PAUL II (1978-). "To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained. (Dominicae Cenae, sec. 11)

Here is the paragraph from Dominicae Cenae, sec.11, that you quoted:

To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained, one which indicates an active participation in the ministry of the Eucharist. It is obvious that the Church can grant this faculty to those who are neither priests nor deacons, as is the case with acolytes in the exercise of their ministry, especially if they are destined for future ordination, or with other lay people who are chosen for this to meet a just need, but always after an adequate preparation.

About as definitive as everything else in the NO - - - what does "to meet a just need" mean? Nuthin' like a little ambiguity when it comes to the Sacred Species hey? Lemme guess, "a just need" means whatever the priest or lay person decides "a just need" is whenever they deem "a just need" convenient.   

What can "an adequate preparation" possibly mean in the NO?

Are you destined for future ordination? Are women destined for future ordination?
 
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#28
(01-06-2011, 06:59 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(01-05-2011, 05:10 PM)lumine Wrote:
(01-05-2011, 03:48 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Quit touching the Consecrated Host unless you're hands are consecrated.

POPE PAUL VI (1963-1978). "This method [on the tongue] must be retained." (Apostolic Epistle "Memoriale Domini")

POPE JOHN PAUL II (1978-). "To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained. (Dominicae Cenae, sec. 11)

Here is the paragraph from Dominicae Cenae, sec.11, that you quoted:

To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained, one which indicates an active participation in the ministry of the Eucharist. It is obvious that the Church can grant this faculty to those who are neither priests nor deacons, as is the case with acolytes in the exercise of their ministry, especially if they are destined for future ordination, or with other lay people who are chosen for this to meet a just need, but always after an adequate preparation.

About as definitive as everything else in the NO - - - what does "to meet a just need" mean? Nuthin' like a little ambiguity when it comes to the Sacred Species hey? Lemme guess, "a just need" means whatever the priest or lay person decides "a just need" is whenever they deem "a just need" convenient.   

What can "an adequate preparation" possibly mean in the NO?

Are you destined for future ordination? Are women destined for future ordination?
 
If you read the entire sentence above, you will see that other lay people may also be chosen for the task, in addition to those destined for future ordination,  There is no ambiguity there.
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#29
(01-06-2011, 08:09 AM)lumine Wrote:
(01-06-2011, 06:59 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(01-05-2011, 05:10 PM)lumine Wrote:
(01-05-2011, 03:48 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Quit touching the Consecrated Host unless you're hands are consecrated.

POPE PAUL VI (1963-1978). "This method [on the tongue] must be retained." (Apostolic Epistle "Memoriale Domini")

POPE JOHN PAUL II (1978-). "To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained. (Dominicae Cenae, sec. 11)

Here is the paragraph from Dominicae Cenae, sec.11, that you quoted:

To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained, one which indicates an active participation in the ministry of the Eucharist. It is obvious that the Church can grant this faculty to those who are neither priests nor deacons, as is the case with acolytes in the exercise of their ministry, especially if they are destined for future ordination, or with other lay people who are chosen for this to meet a just need, but always after an adequate preparation.

About as definitive as everything else in the NO - - - what does "to meet a just need" mean? Nuthin' like a little ambiguity when it comes to the Sacred Species hey? Lemme guess, "a just need" means whatever the priest or lay person decides "a just need" is whenever they deem "a just need" convenient.   

What can "an adequate preparation" possibly mean in the NO?

Are you destined for future ordination? Are women destined for future ordination?
 
If you read the entire sentence above, you will see that other lay people may also be chosen for the task, in addition to those destined for future ordination,  There is no ambiguity there.
Right. There is no ambiguity. Just a break from a practice going back over 1500 years.
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#30
(01-06-2011, 08:28 PM)Justin Wrote:
(01-06-2011, 08:09 AM)lumine Wrote:
(01-06-2011, 06:59 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(01-05-2011, 05:10 PM)lumine Wrote:
(01-05-2011, 03:48 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Quit touching the Consecrated Host unless you're hands are consecrated.

POPE PAUL VI (1963-1978). "This method [on the tongue] must be retained." (Apostolic Epistle "Memoriale Domini")

POPE JOHN PAUL II (1978-). "To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained. (Dominicae Cenae, sec. 11)

Here is the paragraph from Dominicae Cenae, sec.11, that you quoted:

To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained, one which indicates an active participation in the ministry of the Eucharist. It is obvious that the Church can grant this faculty to those who are neither priests nor deacons, as is the case with acolytes in the exercise of their ministry, especially if they are destined for future ordination, or with other lay people who are chosen for this to meet a just need, but always after an adequate preparation.

About as definitive as everything else in the NO - - - what does "to meet a just need" mean? Nuthin' like a little ambiguity when it comes to the Sacred Species hey? Lemme guess, "a just need" means whatever the priest or lay person decides "a just need" is whenever they deem "a just need" convenient.   

What can "an adequate preparation" possibly mean in the NO?

Are you destined for future ordination? Are women destined for future ordination?
 
If you read the entire sentence above, you will see that other lay people may also be chosen for the task, in addition to those destined for future ordination,  There is no ambiguity there.
Right. There is no ambiguity. Just a break from a practice going back over 1500 years.

I think the point that Lumine was making was that Stubborn had taken a statement from JPII out of context to make the pope's position appear other than it really is.  Whether he is right or wrong, the fact is that JP II was not making a statement against lay people handling the Sacred Host.
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