Saintly Bishop Bids His People Goodbye at End of Mass and Dies Shortly After
#11
(01-11-2011, 01:21 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:00 PM)Gerard Wrote: Doesn't anyone think self-canonization is a little strange especially to traditional Catholics?

He is probably pretty familiar with the state and condition of his soul.

Aren't you?

Presumption of one's salvation is a sin.

Even if he has no mortal sin in his conscience, he shouldn't presume he's automatically entitled Heaven.
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#12
(01-11-2011, 01:28 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:21 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:00 PM)Gerard Wrote: Doesn't anyone think self-canonization is a little strange especially to traditional Catholics?

He is probably pretty familiar with the state and condition of his soul.

Aren't you?

Presumption of one's salvation is a sin.

Even if he has no mortal sin in his conscience, he shouldn't presume he's automatically entitled Heaven.

Fair enough.  And it's good or us to pray for the repose of soul.

But if I make it to 82, I'm going to keep going to confession and just be optimistic about heaven.  Imagine having your last action on earth be to offer Mass!  What a treat.
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#13
(01-11-2011, 01:19 PM)miss_fluffy Wrote: Many saints have expressed knowledge about attaining Heaven.  When you are that close to human perfection, the path is clear.  Who are we to judge this Bishop?  Besides, criticizing a Bishop in such a way, particularly a holy one can be a very grave matter.

The saints I have read about usually had hope for Heaven but were also very aware of their "negligence" during their lives.  What they were sure about was the fact of coming to the judgement seat of God.  I would think the best thing to do would be to request prayers for the state of your soul when you've been given the gift of knowing that you are at your end.
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#14
(01-11-2011, 01:28 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:21 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:00 PM)Gerard Wrote: Doesn't anyone think self-canonization is a little strange especially to traditional Catholics?

He is probably pretty familiar with the state and condition of his soul.

Aren't you?

Presumption of one's salvation is a sin.


Even if he has no mortal sin in his conscience, he shouldn't presume he's automatically entitled Heaven.

So is judging another. Perhaps you confuse presumption with hope? Besides even if he did lose his soul, I doubt he would celebrate Mass in hell.
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#15
(01-11-2011, 08:33 PM)Sinner Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:28 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:21 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:00 PM)Gerard Wrote: Doesn't anyone think self-canonization is a little strange especially to traditional Catholics?

He is probably pretty familiar with the state and condition of his soul.

Aren't you?

Presumption of one's salvation is a sin.

Even if he has no mortal sin in his conscience, he shouldn't presume he's automatically entitled Heaven.

So is judging another. Perhaps you confuse presumption with hope? Besides even if he did lose his soul, I doubt he would celebrate Mass in hell.

I'm not judging anyone. I simply commented on his words. Perhaps you missed them.

Let's review them, then. The late bishop said: "This is my last Holy Mass on Earth, the next will be in Heaven."

This seems to imply that he found himself assured of his salvation which qualifies as presumption of one's salvation, bar any special revelation from God.
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#16
(01-11-2011, 09:05 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 08:33 PM)Sinner Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:28 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:21 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:00 PM)Gerard Wrote: Doesn't anyone think self-canonization is a little strange especially to traditional Catholics?

He is probably pretty familiar with the state and condition of his soul.

Aren't you?

Presumption of one's salvation is a sin.

Even if he has no mortal sin in his conscience, he shouldn't presume he's automatically entitled Heaven.

So is judging another. Perhaps you confuse presumption with hope? Besides even if he did lose his soul, I doubt he would celebrate Mass in hell.

I'm not judging anyone. I simply commented on his words. Perhaps you missed them.

Let's review them, then. The late bishop said: "This is my last Holy Mass on Earth, the next will be in Heaven."

This seems to imply that he found himself assured of his salvation which qualifies as presumption of one's salvation, bar any special revelation from God.

Not necessarily. He may only have meant that he won't be able to say Mass in Purgatory...

C.
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#17
(01-11-2011, 11:01 AM)Gerard Wrote: Unless he had some kind of private revelation guaranteeing him his place in Heaven, shouldn't he have asked for prayers and perseverance? 

Maybe he did.  Maybe that's why he made the announcement, basically that he would pass away that day, and then did so.  Who knows.  :pray:
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#18
(01-11-2011, 09:36 PM)Cetil Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 09:05 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 08:33 PM)Sinner Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:28 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:21 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:00 PM)Gerard Wrote: Doesn't anyone think self-canonization is a little strange especially to traditional Catholics?

He is probably pretty familiar with the state and condition of his soul.

Aren't you?

Presumption of one's salvation is a sin.

Even if he has no mortal sin in his conscience, he shouldn't presume he's automatically entitled Heaven.

So is judging another. Perhaps you confuse presumption with hope? Besides even if he did lose his soul, I doubt he would celebrate Mass in hell.

I'm not judging anyone. I simply commented on his words. Perhaps you missed them.

Let's review them, then. The late bishop said: "This is my last Holy Mass on Earth, the next will be in Heaven."

This seems to imply that he found himself assured of his salvation which qualifies as presumption of one's salvation, bar any special revelation from God.

Not necessarily. He may only have meant that he won't be able to say Mass in Purgatory...

C.

Nor in Hell. The fact remains that he doesn't know the eternal fate of his soul. Going to Purgatory is being saved, after all.

The most proper thing to say would be to ask for his parishioners to pray for him, not to mention leaving some money behind so that masses could be said for his soul.
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#19
(01-11-2011, 09:46 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 09:36 PM)Cetil Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 09:05 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 08:33 PM)Sinner Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:28 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:21 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 01:00 PM)Gerard Wrote: Doesn't anyone think self-canonization is a little strange especially to traditional Catholics?

He is probably pretty familiar with the state and condition of his soul.

Aren't you?

Presumption of one's salvation is a sin.

Even if he has no mortal sin in his conscience, he shouldn't presume he's automatically entitled Heaven.

So is judging another. Perhaps you confuse presumption with hope? Besides even if he did lose his soul, I doubt he would celebrate Mass in hell.

I'm not judging anyone. I simply commented on his words. Perhaps you missed them.

Let's review them, then. The late bishop said: "This is my last Holy Mass on Earth, the next will be in Heaven."

This seems to imply that he found himself assured of his salvation which qualifies as presumption of one's salvation, bar any special revelation from God.

Not necessarily. He may only have meant that he won't be able to say Mass in Purgatory...

C.

Nor in Hell. The fact remains that he doesn't know the eternal fate of his soul. Going to Purgatory is being saved, after all.

The most proper thing to say would be to ask for his parishioners to pray for him, not to mention leaving some money behind so that masses could be said for his soul.

It's possible he did know somehow, no one can really say.

C.
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#20
He knew he was going to die.  Even made the announcement.  Sounds like the Lord gave him a message.  How else did he know he was going to die?  Obviously he was in good enough health to say Mass. 

Maybe the Lord said: "This is your last Mass.  After this you will be with me in heaven".
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