Saintly Bishop Bids His People Goodbye at End of Mass and Dies Shortly After
#21
(01-11-2011, 10:03 PM)Cetil Wrote: It's possible he did know somehow, no one can really say.

C.

Yes, I guess you're right.

It must have been the same kind of "divine insight" that Card. Ratzinger had when he declared that Br. Roger - the Calvinist preacher of the ecumenical community of Taizé - had in fact "attained eternal joy".
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#22
(01-11-2011, 09:05 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: I'm not judging anyone. I simply commented on his words.

Your words seem to indicate that you judge this deceased Bishop as guilty of the sin of presumption.  Perhaps you missed them, let's review.  You stated:  "Presumption of one's salvation is a sin.  Even if he has no mortal sin in his conscience, he shouldn't presume he's automatically entitled Heaven."
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#23
(01-11-2011, 10:09 PM)James02 Wrote: He knew he was going to die.  Even made the announcement.  Sounds like the Lord gave him a message.  How else did he know he was going to die?  Obviously he was in good enough health to say Mass.

To sense one's near death is not that uncommon.

To have a divine insight into the eternal fate of one's soul prior to death, is.
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#24
(01-11-2011, 10:11 PM)miss_fluffy Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 09:05 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: I'm not judging anyone. I simply commented on his words.

Your words seem to indicate that you judge this deceased Bishop as guilty of the sin of presumption.  Perhaps you missed them, let's review.  You stated:  "Presumption of one's salvation is a sin.  Even if he has no mortal sin in his conscience, he shouldn't presume he's automatically entitled Heaven."

Exactly. His words indicate assurance of salvation.

It seems he had the presumption of his own salvation.
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#25
Or maybe he could have just phrased it differently but didn't actually mean anything by it.  I'm sure he knew whether or not he was in the state of grace.  Perhaps his "presumption" was actually just a very strong virtue of hope and faith in God's promises.

Or maybe he is one of those rare people who received the grace from God to know.  Anyway, I thought it was a perfectly lovely story and am sorry that there always seems to be somebody who will assume (hope for?) the worst.
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#26
Some Saints have been given the consolation of knowing whether or not they are going to heaven, when they are going to die and so forth.  It's a signal grace that they are able to offer consolation to others about their deaths.  Certainly, that he foretold his own death just after Mass was a sign of hope, whether or not there was something supernatural going on.

There are Saints lives where the Saints are assured they are to go to heaven.  It's not presumption at all.  They just believe what they are told.
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#27
I think we're being too fundamentalist.  Personally, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he was using it as a figure of speech.  Sometimes scrutinizing every sentence is a bad thing.
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#28
(01-11-2011, 10:11 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 10:03 PM)Cetil Wrote: It's possible he did know somehow, no one can really say.

C.

Yes, I guess you're right.

It must have been the same kind of "divine insight" that Card. Ratzinger had when he declared that Br. Roger - the Calvinist preacher of the ecumenical community of Taizé - had in fact "attained eternal joy".

I only said it's possible, and I agree with Quis that I would give him the benefit of the doubt. And it's not for you to say really. And it wasn't Cardinal Ratzinger who said that of the man known as Brother Roger of the Taize community. It was Pope Benedict XVI.

C.
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#29
(01-12-2011, 05:49 AM)Cetil Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 10:11 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-11-2011, 10:03 PM)Cetil Wrote: It's possible he did know somehow, no one can really say.

C.

Yes, I guess you're right.

It must have been the same kind of "divine insight" that Card. Ratzinger had when he declared that Br. Roger - the Calvinist preacher of the ecumenical community of Taizé - had in fact "attained eternal joy".

I only said it's possible, and I agree with Quis that I would give him the benefit of the doubt. And it's not for you to say really. And it wasn't Cardinal Ratzinger who said that of the man known as Brother Roger of the Taize community. It was Pope Benedict XVI.

Actually, he was still a cardinal at that time.

And I see that you agree with his "divine insight" about the salvation of a Calvinist preacher.
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#30
I would hope the Bishop was using it as a figure of speech and secondly I hope he was correct and that he did get to Heaven and without a stop in Purgatory.  I'm less concerned about him than I am about the message given to the faithful. 

One of the major errros of the Novus Ordo establishment is the presumption of salvation for everybody. 

I think it was a missed opportunity to suppress that error and let the faithful know that they had a job to do after he was deceased.  It could really have gotten the ball rolling. 


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