Deacons and perfect continence
#41
(02-10-2011, 01:57 AM)Basher Wrote: That's not accurate.  Parents, by natural right, can veto the baptism of their child and they are not surrendering any natural right when doing so.

Actually, it's precisely the same thing.  It's natural right of the parent to *make this choice about Baptism* and so they have the veto of the recpetion.  It's the natural right of the wife to *make that choice about sex* and so she has an analgous veto power.  In effect, you've proven the case by noting that a 3rd party must have a compelling natural right interest to have veto over the reception of a sacrament.  Name another, different, natural right interest a wife has over her husband's ordination?   If you can't, then provide some other reason she'd have this power? 

But that's not what you said.  What you said was this, emphasis mine:

Quote:No third party can veto the reception of a sacrament unless a natural right is being given up by that third party.

The parents do have a natural right, yet they are giving up nothing.  Further, one may have veto power even if they don't have a natural right.  A bishop has the right to veto ordination even if the recipient is willing.  The authority of the bishop is not natural, but ecclesiastical.  His right to veto comes from his office, not natural authority.

There are lots of reasons why the wife might have to give permission.  It can be anything from a relic of the tradition of continence, down to practical considerations such as lessening of income - a husband's responsibility does not end with the marital debt, to the fact that the husband cannot remarry and in the case of her death provide a mother for her children, to practical considerations such as it would be very difficult for him to fulfill his responsibilities as deacon if she were actively against it.  In fact, besides putting a spanner in the works, it could damage their marriage.

Quote:The other problem is that this would in effect cancel out the primary purpose of the Sacrament of Marriage.

And yet this is the tradition of the Church amply demonstrated from Patristic times...so maybe it's not the practice of continence in this case which is flawed, but rather the emphasis on the unitive aspect of sex within marriage as "primary"...which has been debated among and by traditionalists many times before and so should not be surprising here.

That is the tradition of the Latin Church, not the Eastern Church.  The discipline diverged not long after patristic times. 

I don't know any debate about the unitive aspect of sex being primary; I do know a debate about the unitive aspect of marriage being primary instead of secondary.  Is that what you mean?  In the case that separation is not required, that end of marriage would still be fulfilled even if the spouses remain continent.

Quote:The permanent deacon would, in essence, be saying he will no longer fulfill that primary purpose for the purpose of reception of another Sacrament.  Sacraments do not, generally speaking, nullify one another.  Rather, Sacraments often build on one another.  Baptism is required for the rest, confirmation for a licit reception of Holy Orders, etc.  This would be a unique case where one Sacrament, licitly received, interferred with the primary purpose of another.  Is this an impossibility?  Well, no, not necessarily, but it seems to put the burden on the supposer that the married diaconate is not automatically envisioned as a sexually active diaconate.

The burden is not, and never could be on a party arguing from legitimate Church practice from earlier times.  No need to make another analogy on this point, we're at fisheaters, see any other thread about any topic and the point is being made for me.

The burden is on the person making the supposition as an argument.   You are arguing as evidence for an interpretation of 1983 Canon Law that the diaconate was envisioned as a continent one.  That is a strong claim considering in practice those responsible for interpretation and enforcement of Canon Law, including the Popes and those who wrote the Canon Laws, have given zero indication that was the case.  They obviously knew and know that married permanent deacons are not living in continence.  That works against your claim that: "The idea that a married diaconate is automatically envisioned as a sexually active diaconate..is belied...."

I think that a married diaconate was automatically envisioned as a sexually active diaconate by those who wrote, interpret, and enforce Canon Law.  I think it's clear that is the case, so I'm asking you why you don't think that.

Quote:I think the primary problem with this section of your post is the unsupported argument that it is somehow wrong, improper, or unnatural for a married couple to abstain from sex for the sake of the Kingdom of God.  This is a side debate which we can have, and I'm used to having, I'm just taken aback that I would be having it here, rather than on, say, Catholic.com. 

I'm not making that argument at all.

Quote:I think these inferences are non sequitur.  It can easily be said the age difference is due to the different responsibilities

Let's see if it can be "easily" said.  The two differing cases here are Permanent vs. Transitional Diaconate.  You propose that the transitional deacon can be younger than the permanent because of differing responsibilities.  This would indicate that the permanent deacon has *more* or *greater* responsbilities, since he must wait until a later age.  However, we know that this is absolutely not the case, since the transitional deacon, one year or so later, will be elevated to the priesthood and its attendant much greater responsibilities such as confession/penance and of course the consecration of the Eucharist (source and summit, you know).  So, no, that's not it at all.  Seriously, I'd like to see if anyone can support this idea on the terms you've stated. 

A married man has responsibilities to his family which may include small children.  Notice that permanent deacons who are not married are allowed to be younger, the same age as a transitional deacon:

Quote:§2. A candidate for the permanent diaconate who is not married is not to be admitted to the diaconate until after completing at least the twenty-fifth year of age; one who is married, not until after completing at least the thirty-fifth year of age and with the consent of his wife.

Quote:Laws cannot contradict each other.  So either this law doesn't apply to married permanent deacons, or it does and therefore they are bound to something they cannot be bound to since they are already married.

Well, not to be blunt, but welcome to the party, now we all are talking about the same thing.  The permanent diaconate was re-formed and re-instituted according to the 1917 code which was plainly contradictory of the practice of married and incontinent clergy.  Everyone knew it, everyone expected a change of the law to retroactively allow the common practice...and it didn't happen.  Now it's time to follow the chain of reasoning (which is the chain I gave in the earlier post, but sometimes it helps poster and reader to do it a different way):

1. Paul VI reinstituted (as was his idiom) an archaic practice, the permanent diaconate, in the spirit of ressourcement, and did not do anything official or specific to change the status of the diaconate as a major order of clergy bound to continence and celibacy. 
2.The Bishops' conferences of the nations (most notably the USA) began to ordain married men to the permanent diaconate without obtaining specific permissions or clarifications on how Canon Law was to be interpeted.  This reform was rushed through without proper study or consideration (as is their idiom).
3.Two specific permissions were *assumed* to exist:  A.To ordain married men to the permanent diaconate without a promise of continence B.To modify the rite of ordination to accomplish this feat.  It was further assumed that if these permissions existed, they would be codified shortly, with the promulgation of the new Code of Canon Law being the obvious opportunity, since these assumed permissions were technically breaches of the 1917 code.
4.The new code did not address these apparent contradictions.  Rome has subsequently not addressed these contradictions.  Leaving aside Peters and his comrades, the USCCB has been aware of this issue before, and it is fair to characterize their response as "ignoring the issue". 

OK

Quote:So, what is the Traditional Catholic interpretation of a series of events like this, where Rome does not officially sanction the actions of a national Bishop's council, but the council proceeds hell-bent anyway and builds up some edifice on a foundation of "expectations" and "interpetations of the spirit of the movement"?  We've been over this ground many times.  What Peters' proposal points to is merely one more case in the which the USCCB did something unwarranted and tremendously harmful and perhaps even contradictory to the mind of Rome in the wake of VII and now finds itself in an impossible situation. 

We know this music very well, I don't find it hard to believe at all. 

It seems like you are interested in making this a "political" issue rather than a question of Canon Law.  If it were merely a question of Canon Law, I think my "so what?" stance is appropriate for Traditional Catholics.  If the law is sloppy, they'll just change it.  No one will be laicized, etc.

Making it a "political" issue seems imprudent to me and a distraction from doctrinal questions that need to be answered.  Most traditional Catholics would want the permanent and married diaconate abrogated.  Arguing legal points on apparent flaws in the 1983 Code isn't going to obtain that.  Answering doctrinal questions and changing Canon Law to specifically disallow them would.
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Messages In This Thread
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 12:43 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 01:12 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 01:31 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 02:38 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 07:32 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 07:45 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Jesse - 02-08-2011, 07:46 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 07:51 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 08:05 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Jesse - 02-08-2011, 08:10 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 08:15 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-08-2011, 08:23 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 08:35 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-08-2011, 08:40 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-08-2011, 08:50 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-09-2011, 12:05 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Resurrexi - 02-09-2011, 12:24 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Resurrexi - 02-09-2011, 12:26 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-09-2011, 01:06 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-09-2011, 04:14 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-09-2011, 05:04 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-10-2011, 01:57 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-10-2011, 03:23 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-10-2011, 08:24 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-10-2011, 08:41 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-10-2011, 09:00 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-10-2011, 09:31 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-10-2011, 10:38 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-11-2011, 09:46 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-15-2011, 04:31 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-15-2011, 11:46 AM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-15-2011, 08:36 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-15-2011, 09:06 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-15-2011, 09:13 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-15-2011, 09:32 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-15-2011, 09:34 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-15-2011, 09:46 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-15-2011, 10:04 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-15-2011, 10:13 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-15-2011, 10:18 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-15-2011, 10:23 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-15-2011, 10:25 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-15-2011, 10:27 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Basher - 02-15-2011, 10:28 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-15-2011, 10:28 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Historian - 02-16-2011, 12:22 PM
Re: Deacons and perfect continence - by Jesse - 02-16-2011, 12:46 PM



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