Ottaviani intervention
#11
(01-31-2011, 10:49 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote:
(01-31-2011, 08:20 PM)James02 Wrote: I need a history lesson on this.  I thought the timeline is like this: 
1.  Bugnini issues his masonic supper service rubrics.
2.  Pope Paul is going to ok it.
3.  Ottovani intervention, pointing out heresies and possible invalidity.
4.  Pope Paul makes some changes to make it minimally valid and strikes some blatantly heretical parts.

So the key point is I believe the intervention was sent before promulgation, and that some changes were made.  Anyone know for sure?

This is how I understand it. 

My layman's understanding is that since it has the Roman Canon, it is valid.

Doesn't mean it's great/good or it's not sacrilegious, but, it's valid. 

That  (Otttavian's intervention) only covers this mass when said in Latin -- sorry cannot give chapter/verse. I used to know where everything was. When the NO was at its most pristine form. Pre-ICEL (International Committee on English in the Liturgy).

Peeps gotta get Cranmers Godly Order (Michael Davies'  -- ♪RIP♪-- Liturgical Revolution trilogy) -- there's your Bugnini time line, Consilium rape, terrible deeds. Can't remember if there is or is not a way to find out about those who didn't sign on.
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#12
Also, that man who defected (albeit overlate) from ICEL -- when WAS that? 1998? There was a lot to keep track of. Gamber's book, A Bitter Trial (Waugh's writings), Iota Unum and Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholicism - very important all - the Denzinger. Those are the main ones w/ M. Davies' Trilogy. I picked up bits and pieces that helped to further flesh things out most notably David Goldstein's Campaginers For Christ books. Goldstein was a Jewish Socialist convert, 1920's-ish. Letters To Mr. Isaacs, where DG answers a rabbi and even some newer stuff - who was that group, not Jews for Jesus (Jay Sekulow) but Remnant of Israel or something, now those Catholics put out a great pamphlet Queen of the Jews. But the Goldstein stuff REALLY gave insight into what that pre-pre VII Church in America looked like. Densely packed w/ theology, apologetics, devotion, the secular situation. He was incredible!

Even old missals or devotion books sometimes...maybe your local seminary routinely throws out or sells for 25cents a pop these old fogey things. Something about seeing the Ordinary of the Mass in an 1800's devotional book virtually the same as 1962 Missal.

(side note...thinking on all of this brings me back to a time where something particularly amusing happened, sorry probably keep telling this, it was
just one of those moments one never forgets. Right, at a  conference, Trads in the vast high ceiling'd banquet room, terribly dignified. Just as Dr.
David Allen White takes the podium, stands there accepting the applause and all sound dies out, the adjacent ballroom erupts in the studio version
- right ON the chorus - of Play That Funky Music, White Boy. The Trads were subject to the whole refrain as I recall before the disturbance was settled.)
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#13
Wait just a minute here. If the Ottaviani intervention came out before the NO was promulgated and Pope Paul changed things in it why is the Ottaviani intervention still used by trads as a talking point. The Mass of Paul VI isn't what Ottaviani objected too because His Holiness Paul VI changed it. Me confused.  ???
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#14
I don't know how true this but I have heard that when Bugnini showed the Bishops what the New Mass looked like about half of them walked out of the Church. I also heard that most of the Bishops signed on to the New Mass with serious reservations. I feel this is a cop out because whether it was with reservations or not they still signed on to this.

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