Shoud Lila Rose Stop?
#11
Correct me if I am mistaken, but didn't the Vatican itself issue fake baptismal certificates to save some Jews from the Nazis? 
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#12
This is a very tough moral question. My spiritual director brought this up to me a while ago when the topic of Lila Rose came up (I heard her speak last fall).  My director takes the stance that this is lying and wrong. To tell you the truth, and I study theology, I have not quite wrapped my mind around that totally.

It would follow that any undercover work is lying then, and therefore sinful to some degree.

We have had 53 million unborn Americans killed.  And now there is hard evidence of the aiding and abetting in sex trafficking of underage and often stolen young girls.  And we participate in a distant manner by the 363 million taxdollars that line the coffers of these auschwitzes.

The government has looked the other way but now, finally, all these years later, the anger over the evils of this place, now exposed more and more is raising a grassroots effort to defund them --at least we can do that much.

I am a vigil keeper at a planned parenthood.  I watch the cars pull in.  I see the women going in to take the life of their child.  And I know countless women who have done this and live with the repercussions all their lives. It needs to end.  This does not mean using any violence, of course.  If enough of us stand together, we can at least get funds taken until such time as abortion is made unthinkable. 

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#13
I don't think the issue is whether she ought to stop. In fact, I laud most of her actions. It is not immoral to hide the truth, merely to knowingly aver an opinion at variance with the mind. Instead of saying, "I'm a prostitute," she should frame it in the subjunctive, "Suppose I were a prostitute." Abraham did not tell a lie when he said that Sara was his sister as she was in fact his sister which he later explains.
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#14
(02-12-2011, 05:53 PM)St. Drogo Wrote: I don't think the issue is whether she ought to stop. In fact, I laud most of her actions. It is not immoral to hide the truth, merely to knowingly aver an opinion at variance with the mind. Instead of saying, "I'm a prostitute," she should frame it in the subjunctive, "Suppose I were a prostitute." Abraham did not tell a lie when he said that Sara was his sister as she was in fact his sister which he later explains.

If we are to stand by "the means don't justify the ends" and that lying is a sin, no matter what then the only logical conclusion is that lila rose is in fact, sinning.  from there the only logical conclusion is that she should stop.  If one is sinning we don't say "keep it up."  No matter the sin.

Now if it isn't a sin (what she is doing) then thats a different story.

Thats the underlying theme here and is being discussed in another thread (whether what she is doing is moral or not.)



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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#15
Perhaps I didn't express my opinion clearly enough. I am lauding her for exposing many of the PP's practices not the methods she employs. Lying is a sin and she should desist. Hiding the truth in the way I suggested would not be sinful and probably just as effective.
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#16
(02-12-2011, 06:07 PM)St. Drogo Wrote: Perhaps I didn't express my opinion clearly enough. I am lauding her for exposing many of the PP's practices not the methods she employs. Lying is a sin and she should desist. Hiding the truth in the way I suggested would not be sinful and probably just as effective.

I don't know.  I think thats a lot like having your cake and eating it to.  See, if it is in fact sinful then by lauding, you are an accessory to that sin.  We cannot be pleased with the outcome if the means are sinful.  can we?

to be clear, I don't think what she's doing is sinful.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#17
Ah, I see your dilemma. I'll refer you to the relevant passage of the Summa

Q. 110 A. 3. Whether every lie is a sin?
Objection 3. Further, the deeds of holy men are related in Sacred Writ that they may be a model of human life. But we read of certain very holy men that they lied. Thus (Genesis 12 and 20) we are told that Abraham said of his wife that she was his sister. Jacob also lied when he said that he was Esau, and yet he received a blessing (Genesis 27:27-29). Again, Judith is commended (Judith 15:10-11) although she lied to Holofernes. Therefore not every lie is a sin.
Reply to Objection 3. In Holy Writ, as Augustine observes (Lib. De Mend. v), the deeds of certain persons are related as examples of perfect virtue: and we must not believe that such persons were liars. If, however, any of their statements appear to be untruthful, we must understand such statements to have been figurative and prophetic. Hence Augustine says (Lib. De Mend. v): "We must believe that whatever is related of those who, in prophetical times, are mentioned as being worthy of credit, was done and said by them prophetically." As to Abraham "when he said that Sara was his sister, he wished to hide the truth, not to tell a lie, for she is called his sister since she was the daughter of his father," Augustine says (QQ. Super. Gen. xxvi; Contra Mend. x; Contra Faust. xxii). Wherefore Abraham himself said (Genesis 20:12): "She is truly my sister, the daughter of my father, and not the daughter of my mother," being related to him on his father's side. Jacob's assertion that he was Esau, Isaac's first-born, was spoken in a mystical sense, because, to wit, the latter's birthright was due to him by right: and he made use of this mode of speech being moved by the spirit of prophecy, in order to signify a mystery, namely, that the younger people, i.e. the Gentiles, should supplant the first-born, i.e. the Jews.

Some, however, are commended in the Scriptures, not on account of perfect virtue, but for a certain virtuous disposition, seeing that it was owing to some praiseworthy sentiment that they were moved to do certain undue things. It is thus that Judith is praised, not for lying to Holofernes, but for her desire to save the people, to which end she exposed herself to danger. And yet one might also say that her words contain truth in some mystical sense.

I meant to imply that I applaud Lila Rose's zeal to expose an unjust and immoral organization not the actual sin.
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#18
(02-12-2011, 05:12 PM)tflinn Wrote: Correct me if I am mistaken, but didn't the Vatican itself issue fake baptismal certificates to save some Jews from the Nazis? 

Indeed.

Perhaps, according to some, the Vatican sinned by doing so.
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#19
If the Vatican did in fact do that, then yes they sinned. However, I'm not sure that was the case. Have you seen the film Leon Morin, Pretre? Large numbers of jewish children were actually baptized. Abraham Foxman was one of them, I believe. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adl.org%2FADL_Opinions%2FHolocaust%2F20050123-Op-ed%2BPBP.htm&ei=AQhXTaanIoP0tgPbhJmdDA&usg=AFQjCNEX3EGSfpG8iNbA1rW_r0YrsiFEMw
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