There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest
#64
(02-20-2011, 10:41 PM)Catholic Johnny Wrote:
Quote:Why would St. Paul be condemning homosexual behavior twice?  I.e., "effeminate" and "liers with mankind"?  He's not.

Yes he is.  Effeminate refers to those who are passive in the sodomitic act (receive penile penetration) and liers with mankind refers to those who are active (perpetrate the penetration).  

First, that's ridiculous.  To justify that, you would have to assuming that St. Paul is thinking someone is going to split hairs and claim it's OK to take it but not to give it if he left out "effeminate".

Quote:The Fathers you quote do not deny this; they go further into the causes of this perversion in perfect agreement with St. Paul's doctrine in Romans 1 that the rejection of God in the mind leads to depravity of life.  This also agrees with the Lord's proclamation through the Prophet Ezekiel on the causes of the outrageous perversions in Sodom and Gomorrah:

The Fathers I quote do not deny homosexual acts are sinful, no.  But they use effeminate to mean other than that, don't they?  Or does wearing fine clothes only apply to homosexuals?

Quote:
Quote:"Behold this was the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance, and the idleness of her, and of her daughters: and they did not put forth their hand to the needy, and to the poor. [50] And they were lifted up, and committed abominations before me: and I took them away as thou hast seen."  Ez. 16:49-50

Douay-Rheims Bible alsoadds this commentary:
[49] "This was the iniquity of Sodom"... That is, these were the steps by which the Sodomites came to fall into those abominations for which they were destroyed. For pride, gluttony, and idleness are the highroad to all kinds of lust; especially when they are accompanied with a neglect of the works of mercy.

Surely you won't argue that the men of Sodom were not depraved homosexuals!

We're not talking about Ezechial, we're talking about 1 Cor.  There is no dispute that sodomitical acts are condemned in the Bible.  That's not the question.  The question is does the Protestant translation you are using to argue your point reconcile with Catholic teaching on what effeminate means.  The answer is that it doesn't.

Quote:In any event, it is the New Birth in Christ that is the issue here.
"If so be that you have heard him, and have been taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus: To put off, according to former conversation, the old man, who ...is corrupted according to the desire of error. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind: And put on the new man, who according to God is created in justice and holiness of truth." Eph.4:21-24

How can the new man created by God in justice and holiness of truth be defined by a proclivity to mortal sin? And what is the renewing of the mind?

That's a different topic.  We need to finish with 1 Corinthians first.  You clearly don't understand what is meant by "effeminate".

First of all, the Latin word used, molles, has nothing inherent to do with homosexuality.  Second, if you look in a dictionary the English word effeminate doesn't mean homosexual either.  It means:

: having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner
: marked by an unbecoming delicacy or overrefinement <effeminate art> <an effeminate civilization>

Which is exactly how the Church Fathers use it and how St. Thomas uses it.  It means being unmanly or delicate.  I.e., "molles" - soft or womanly.

The other problem with your argument using 1 Cor is that even if you are correct, which you aren't, you state that the sins are tied to acts.

Catholic Johnny Wrote:Effeminate refers to those who are passive in the sodomitic act (receive penile penetration) and liers with mankind refers to those who are active (perpetrate the penetration).

By your own definition, no act, no sin.  If someone isn't taking it from or giving it to another guy they are neither effeminate or liers with men according to your definition, right?

I would also like to answer your challenge about "homosexual persons" appearing before 1988, but you need to answer my question:

Quis Wrote:do you want me to find a pre-1986 use of the word homosexual in Catholic theology, or the exact phrase "homosexual persons"?  Since the word homosexual didn't even really exist before the late 1800's, can I find equivalent phrases such as "sodomitical person", or would those not count?


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Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - by Historian - 02-21-2011, 12:49 AM



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