There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest
(02-21-2011, 01:14 AM)Catholic Johnny Wrote:
(02-21-2011, 12:49 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(02-20-2011, 10:41 PM)Catholic Johnny Wrote:
Quote:Why would St. Paul be condemning homosexual behavior twice?  I.e., "effeminate" and "liers with mankind"?  He's not.

Yes he is.  Effeminate refers to those who are passive in the sodomitic act (receive penile penetration) and liers with mankind refers to those who are active (perpetrate the penetration).  

First, that's ridiculous.  To justify that, you would have to assuming that St. Paul is thinking someone is going to split hairs and claim it's OK to take it but not to give it if he left out "effeminate".

[The Fathers I quote do not deny homosexual acts are sinful, no.  But they use effeminate to mean other than that, don't they?  Or does wearing fine clothes only apply to homosexuals?

We're not talking about Ezechial, we're talking about 1 Cor.   There is no dispute that sodomitical acts are condemned in the Bible.  That's not the question.  The question is does the Protestant translation you are using to argue your point reconcile with Catholic teaching on what effeminate means.  The answer is that it doesn't.

Quote:In any event, it is the New Birth in Christ that is the issue here.
"If so be that you have heard him, and have been taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus: To put off, according to former conversation, the old man, who corrupted according to the desire of error. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind: And put on the new man, who according to God is created in justice and holiness of truth." Eph.4:21-24

How can the new man created by God in justice and holiness of truth be defined by a proclivity to mortal sin? And what is the renewing of the mind?

That's a different topic.  We need to finish with 1 Corinthians first.  You clearly don't understand what is meant by "effeminate".

First of all, the Latin word used, molles, has nothing inherent to do with homosexuality.  Second, if you look in a dictionary the English word effeminate doesn't mean homosexual either.  It means:

: having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner
: marked by an unbecoming delicacy or overrefinement <effeminate art> <an effeminate civilization>

Which is exactly how the Church Fathers use it and how St. Thomas uses it.  It means being unmanly or delicate.  I.e., "molles" - soft or womanly.

The other problem with your argument using 1 Cor is that even if you are correct, which you aren't, you state that the sins are tied to acts.

Catholic Johnny Wrote:Effeminate refers to those who are passive in the sodomitic act (receive penile penetration) and liers with mankind refers to those who are active (perpetrate the penetration).

By your own definition, no act, no sin.  If someone isn't taking it from or giving it to another guy they are neither effeminate or liers with men according to your definition, right?

I would also like to answer your challenge about "homosexual persons" appearing before 1988, but you need to answer my question:

Quis Wrote:do you want me to find a pre-1986 use of the word homosexual in Catholic theology, or the exact phrase "homosexual persons"?  Since the word homosexual didn't even really exist before the late 1800's, can I find equivalent phrases such as "sodomitical person", or would those not count?

LOL, OK, you continue to strengthen my argument, Quis.   :laughing:
If you wish to define molle in accordance with the body of quotes you supplied, you actually widen the scope of those acts and persons who are condemned in 1 Cor. 6:9-11.   For by your own definitions it is not merely those who practice sodomitical acts but also those who betray their God-given sexual nature by an exaggerated effeminate affectation.  And then the passage immediately refers to liers with mankind (an obvious referral to Lev. 18:22) - which is explicit:
Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination.

and St. Paul, condemning both acts and persons:
Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.  Rom. 1:32 D-R

I know what my definitions are; he is condemning those who are unmanly, who are soft, who lack perseverance.  You are the one who is claiming he is condemning people on the one hand because they receive a penis and on the other because they give it.  :laughing:

But I'm glad you finally concede the point that effeminate in this passage doesn't refer specifically to homosexuals and does refer to a wider group of individuals. :tiphat:

Quote:The other problem with your argument using 1 Cor is that even if you are correct, which you aren't, you state that the sins are tied to acts.
You are just being obstinate now, Quis.  How then can St. Paul say in the Spirit of Christ, "such were some of you" (identity) and not "such did some of you (acts) if he is only referring to acts and not identity?

Really?  I mean, really?  Well, alright.  The thing is, you have to tell me.  You said effeminate condemned those who take the penis, liers with men condemned those who gave the penis.  You're the one hung up on the acts.

My interpretation, which is the same as St. Thomas', btw, is that effeminate here refers to a lack of virtue.  Liers with mankind refers to those who engage in sodomitical acts, whether in the passive or active role.

Quote:You are obscuring the entire construction of the NT doctrine of the new birth and conversion.  How can a new creation "be" a "homosexual person"?  This either makes God the author of sin in natural creation or Christ the author of sin in the new creation, both concepts that are untenable for a Roman Catholic.

First of all, you are still assuming effeminate in this passage means homosexual along with your heretical friends.  Since you appear to want to play to an audience (our readers) and show yourself a Scripture scholar, maybe you can explain why the Vulgate uses effeminati when it refers specifically to homosexuals everywhere else in the Bible and molles or soft in this particular passage and Prov 18:8 where it is clear it is effeminate in the sense of unmanly.

Quote:The words of the double tongued are as if they were harmless: and they reach even to the inner parts of the bowels. Fear casteth down the slothful: and the souls of the effeminate shall be hungry. [9] He that is loose and slack in his work, is the brother of him that wasteth his own works.

You, and the Protestants, have the wrong understanding.  The Vulgate makes it clear in the difference between molles and effeminati.  Molles means lacking in the virtue of perseverance, being soft, being unmanly which can include being passive in sodomy.  Effeminati refers specifically to those who engage passively in sodomitical acts.

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Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - by Historian - 02-21-2011, 03:45 AM

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