There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest
(02-21-2011, 05:23 AM)Catholic Johnny Wrote: To Reply #76:

1.  I did not concede that molle does not refer to homosexual identity or behavior; I said that by the body of quotations you supplied, the term is open to a wider application, not a narrower one, to include most definitely the catamites found in Corinth's cult of Aphrodite and the Greco-Roman debauchery of pederasty.

I didn't claim you concede that.  My claim was:

Quote:But I'm glad you finally concede the point that effeminate in this passage doesn't refer specifically to homosexuals and does refer to a wider group of individuals.

Or in other words, in case you misunderstood, that you concede effeminate refers not only to homosexuals but also to a wider group of individuals.

Quote:First of all, you are still assuming effeminate in this passage means homosexual along with your heretical friends.  Since you appear to want to play to an audience (our readers) and show yourself a Scripture scholar, maybe you can explain why the Vulgate uses effeminati when it refers specifically to homosexuals everywhere else in the Bible and molles or soft in this particular passage and Prov 18:8 where it is clear it is effeminate in the sense of unmanly.

OK, Quis.  More etymology (since you enjoy it so much  ;)):
The Hebrew word translated effeminati in the Vulgate is qAdesh (cf 4 Kings 23:7). The Hebrew word for "holy" is qOdesh. In other words, the consonants for both words are exactly the same. Only a slight difference in the vowel alters the meaning of the word.  That is, what was once holy is now unclean. What was once right is now wrong. Ergo, a word meaning the OPPOSITE of holy is utilized here.  St. Jerome in the Latin Vulgate uses the word "effemenati", making it obvious how he viewed the Hebrew word qAdesh.  Strong's Concordance (sorry, could not find a Catholic Hebrew concordance) renders the term translated in English as effeminate as follows: 'from 'qadash' (6942); a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry:-- sodomite, unclean'. 

St. Paul's explicit reference to Lev. 18:22 as sodomy in "liers with men" seems clear enough.   76 posts into this discussion, you still have not answered "such were some of you, but you are washed... sanctified...justified..." nor St. Paul's condemnation of homosexual persons and they that approve of them in Romans 1:32.

I will answer it after we have a common and relatively correct understanding of the passage.

Be that as it may, if anything you have explained why he used effeminati in those passages, and I already stated that.  It is clear they are referring to sodomitical practices.  You have not explained why he chose molles for Proverbs when it doesn't refer uniquely to sodomites.  As you point out, it is St. Jerome's understanding - where he understands sodomitical, he uses "effeminati" where he understands soft, unmanly, etc., he uses "molles".

If not, make an argument as to why he uses molles in Proverbs and effeminati everywhere else.

Quote:* BTW, an exegesis of the original Greek may apply to both types of male homosexuals: the passive partner (malakos, i.e. 'effeminate', or 'catamite') and the active partner (arsenokoites, i.e. 'one who goes to bed with males'). (CHRYS C. CARAGOUNIS, PhD, Greek scholar) *

I'll get to the use of malakos in the NT momentarily.

Quote:You, and the Protestants, have the wrong understanding.  The Vulgate makes it clear in the difference between molles and effeminati.  Molles means lacking in the virtue of perseverance, being soft, being unmanly which can include being passive in sodomy.  Effeminati refers specifically to those who engage passively in sodomitical acts.
And both are condemned as identities that exclude men from the kingdom of God.  You seem to be straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel, dear brother.  You also are not interpreting the passage in the light of the entire canon of Sacred Scripture from which I have supplied sundry references to help us appertain the mind of Christ on this important issue.  It is not a stand alone passage and must be read in its context and in that of the entire Canon.

Then let's look at how malakos is used in the rest of the New Testament to see what it means contextually.  It is used in two other places.

Matt 11:8
But what went you out to see? a man clothed in soft garments? Behold they that are clothed in soft garments, are in the houses of kings

Luke 7:25
But what went you out to see? a man clothed in soft garments? Behold they that are in costly apparel and live delicately, are in the houses of kings.

ETA:  You will note St. Jerome translated these using molles for malakos as well.

Quote:I believe this covers all the bases, Quis.  Effeminati is used in the Old Testament to describe ritual male cult prostitution. 

Sure, but St. Jerome didn't use effeminati in 1 Cor.  He used molles to translate malakos, and the only other places in the NT malakos is used is to refer to soft and unmanly things.


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Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - by Historian - 02-21-2011, 05:06 PM

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