There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest
(02-22-2011, 05:49 AM)Catholic Johnny Wrote:
(02-22-2011, 05:31 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: They that do such things is not an "identity".  It condemns people who actually act.  They do something to be condemned; it isn't their disposition to sin that condemns them, or we'd all be damned since we all have a disposition to sin because of the fall.

You're attempting to single out a disposition to a particular sin and damn people for it.  Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  You have to actually do something, not just possess a disposition.   We don't go to Confession because of our fallen nature; we go to Confession when we do something wrong.

You are now misrepresenting my position, Quis.  I am not talking about mere concupiscience with which all the faithful must contend.  I am talking about a rejection of grace by maintaining that the properties of the new birth are of no effect.  I am not talking about mere flashes of transient temptation - I am talking about what Pope Benedict calls here 'deep seated tendencies.'  There are two possibilities here.

1.  The deep seated tendencies are confessed as disordered and a grave predisposition to mortal sin;
2.  The deep seated tendencies are attributed to God with no need of renunciation, mortification, or reorienting towards complimentary sexualty as God "created them, male and female."

The second category is what is most dangerous here in our own day and situation as the Modernists have ruthlessly exploited it to the destruction of our institutions and the wounding of uncountable souls.  Which I have yet to read your admission of to this point.   To maintain that one is a homosexual person even after the grace of the new birth accomplishes the second.

That's where we disagree - the part in red.  One can mortify concupisence, but it never goes away, does it?  It is there because of the Fall; the same reason any perversion, disorder, inordinate desire, etc. is there.  We cannot get rid of desires per se, what we can do is exert our will over them.

This is why I pointed out an alcoholic.  You seem to think that someone who is an alcoholic can mortify the acquired predisposition to getting drunk out of them.  That isn't the case.  They can stop drinking just as a homosexual can stop sodomizing.  The predisposition to sin still exists.

Your claim - in so many words - is that anyone who hasn't "beat the gay" or "prayed the gay" (where "the gay" is the disordered attraction to members of the same sex) out of themselves can't be a Christian, right?

The intellectually honest conclusion of what you are saying is in fact this:  If someone has a pre-disposition to a sin for whatever reason (psychological, environmental, etc.) unless they get rid of that pre-disposition they can't be Christian because, according to you, of 1 Cor.  Take a fornicator.  If someone continues to be inordinately horny, they are necessarily rejecting the grace of Christ I suppose?  That sounds quasi-heretical to me, to be honest with you.  I'll be happy to explain why if you don't know.

If not, then why the special treatment of homosexuals and not fornicators or liars?  Aren't all those problems mentioned together?

And that's why I suspect we will have to go back to 1 Cor and why you are dependent on it.  The distinction you need for your argument to hold is that effeminate is a sin of "identity" whereas fornicator is not.  That's why you are insistent that St. Paul is condemning "homosexuals" instead of those lacking virtue when he refers to malakoi.

Maybe you'll surprise me though.  Maybe you won't make a distinction between those things.  It will be an interesting answer if you don't...

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Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - by Historian - 02-22-2011, 06:10 AM

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