There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest
(02-22-2011, 08:46 AM)Catholic Johnny Wrote:
(02-22-2011, 06:10 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: Your claim - in so many words - is that anyone who hasn't "beat the gay" or "prayed the gay" (where "the gay" is the disordered attraction to members of the same sex) out of themselves can't be a Christian, right?

The intellectually honest conclusion of what you are saying is in fact this:  If someone has a pre-disposition to a sin for whatever reason (psychological, environmental, etc.) unless they get rid of that pre-disposition they can't be Christian because, according to you, of 1 Cor.  Take a fornicator.  If someone continues to be inordinately horny, they are necessarily rejecting the grace of Christ I suppose?  That sounds quasi-heretical to me, to be honest with you.  I'll be happy to explain why if you don't know.

If not, then why the special treatment of homosexuals and not fornicators or liars?  Aren't all those problems mentioned together?

And that's why I suspect we will have to go back to 1 Cor and why you are dependent on it.  The distinction you need for your argument to hold is that effeminate is a sin of "identity" whereas fornicator is not.  That's why you are insistent that St. Paul is condemning "homosexuals" instead of those lacking virtue when he refers to malakoi.

Maybe you'll surprise me though.  Maybe you won't make a distinction between those things.  It will be an interesting answer if you don't...

You contradict yourself and continually misrepresent my position.  I am beginning to think you haven't even so much as read my previous posts in this thread because you ignore the arguments you can't refute and keep stating I expect all concupiscience to leave the true believer.

I've read all your posts. What you are missing is the logical consquences of what you are saying.  As far as contradicting myself, hmm.  Maybe?  I do know you have made several glaring contradictions that I've glossed over because it would be futile to present you with them.

Quote:I have stated from the beginning:  there is no such theological category as a "homosexual person" and you cannot cite any proof to the contrary from Tradition. 

Not that I cannot, but that I haven't tried.  I haven't tried because you haven't answered my questions on what you mean by that.  For the third time:

Quote:As far as "homosexual persons", before we go into what I believe is an unnecessarily labored interpretation of the phrase on your part,  do you want me to find a pre-1986 use of the word homosexual in Catholic theology, or the exact phrase "homosexual persons"?  Since the word homosexual didn't even really exist before the late 1800's, can I find equivalent phrases such as "sodomitical person", or would those not count?

If you aren't going to give me the parameters of your request, I'm not going to attempt it.  In fact, there is an inherent problem in your request because Tradition with a capital T means those things that are handed down.  I'm going to assume you mean Magisterial, but I'm probably going to regret making even that assumption...

While I'm waiting though, here is another question for you: what is a "theological category" in your mind?  To me that would be: Sacraments, vices, virtues, etc.  "male" and "female" are not theological categories in my mind.  Can you give me some examples of other "theological categories"?

Answer those, and I'll be happy to try.  If I can't find anything, I will admit as much.

Quote: You still have not addressed "such were some of you" and "they that do such things are worthy of death."  One must be either a Christian or a homosexual, but not both.  The issue is the properties belonging to the new birth, which you also artfully avoid over and over again.  One cannot be a homosexual if one is a new creature in Christ. He may struggle with temptations and great trials of nature and mortification, but he cannot BE a homosexual if he is a new creature in Christ. 

This is really rich, you know, demanding I address your thoughts when you completely ignore a bunch of mine.  I haven't "artfully avoided it".  I've clearly stated that cannot be addressed if you think malakos refers to homosexuals as identity because your premise is wrong.

But I'll play your game.  Since you demand we move forward, we will, but on my terms not yours.  If you don't want to finish discussing the premise, I'll assume my premise is correct and yours is wrong -- just as you have been doing.  I'll address it assuming malakos / molles / effeminate refers to those who have vices opposed to perseverance rather than "homosexuals" as you are assuming.

Really, it seems simple to me what he is saying:  You wallowed in these sins before, you were cleansed with Baptism, you are to refrain from them as Christians - you know better now; you are not to delight in them, approve of them, or partake of them.

Quote:Cyril of Jerusalem
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310103.htm

8. What then must you do? And what are the fruits of repentance? Let him that has two coats give to him that has none Luke 3:11: the teacher was worthy of credit, since he was also the first to practise what he taught: he was not ashamed to speak, for conscience hindered not his tongue: and he that has meat, let him do likewise. Would you enjoy the grace of the Holy Spirit, yet judgest the poor not worthy of bodily food? Seekest thou the great gifts, and impartest not of the small? Though you be a publican, or a fornicator, have hope of salvation: the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. Matthew 21:31 Paul also is witness, saying, Neither fornicators, nor adulterers, nor the rest, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but you were washed, but you were sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 He said not, such are some of you, but such were some of you. Sin committed in the state of ignorance is pardoned, but persistent wickedness is condemned.

Quote:St. Irenaeus
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103437.htm

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man's power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient; 1 Corinthians 6:12 referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect all things are lawful, God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] not expedient pointing out that we should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness, 1 Peter 2:16 for this is not expedient. And again he says, Speak every man truth with his neighbour. Ephesians 4:25 And, Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks. Ephesians 4:29 And, For you were sometimes darkness, but now are you light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but you have been washed, but you have been sanctified in the name of our Lord. 1 Corinthians 6:11 If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

Quote:St. Augustine
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102029.htm

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 After reading these, I charged them to consider how believers could hear these words, but you are washed, if they still tolerated in their own hearts— that is, in God's inner temple— the abominations of such lusts as these against which the kingdom of heaven is shut.

These people are not free of their faults, their struggles, etc.  They WERE that way because 1) they are now baptized, 2) they exert their will to not commit those acts anymore.  Fornicators stop fornicating, condemn it, and flee from that sin.  Sodomites stop sodomizing, condemn it, and flee from that sin.  Nowhere does it mean an ex-fornicator stops having an overactive libido or an ex-sodomite stops being attracted to other men.

The meaning of that passage is best summed up by St. Irenaeus:

Quote: If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

It is specifically about doing things including: approving / disapproving, enjoying that which is forbidden, etc. by exertion of our free will upon our passions whether they be disordered or just inordinate.

Quote:
Quote:Take a fornicator.  If someone continues to be inordinately horny, they are necessarily rejecting the grace of Christ I suppose?  That sounds quasi-heretical to me, to be honest with you.  I'll be happy to explain why if you don't know.

Fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God and yet here you are claiming that they are receiving grace.  Not while they are practioners of this sin, which unfortunately is ubiquitous and accepted by many priests.  If I should say, "I am an adulterer and a Christian", St. Paul teaches that I am in mortal sin:

Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.   Or know you not, that he who is joined to a harlot, is made one body? For they shall be, saith he, two in one flesh.  But he who is joined to the Lord, is one spirit.  Fly fornication. Every sin that a man doth, is without the body; but he that committeth fornication, sinneth against his own body. 1 Cor. 6:15-18

Again, you are either a Christian or a fornicator, and here you have again joined them together as though penance were unneccesary or that the Holy Spirit  would unite Himself to a practicing fornicator.  Now if he is no longer practicing, why did you call him a fornicator?  Again, "such were some of you."  The former fornicator may have grievous temptations and seasons of necessary mortification but he is a new creature in Christ Jesus, Who has made all things new.  Absolution most surely confers the gift of justice and innocence, and removes the guilt.  Therefore the Priest in the stead of Christ says in the absolution, "I forgive you all of your sins."  How then can you call him whom Christ has washed, sanctified and justified (1 Cor. 6:11) a fornicator?  Who is the accuser of the brethren?  Christ?  His Church?  His ministers?  No, the devil and his angels.  Therefore it is completey wrong to call an absolved and righteous man a fornicator and it is equally wrong to call an absolved person a homosexual, effeminate, molle, boy prostitute, _____________.

A fornicator describes someone engaging in actual acts.  A homosexual describes someone who has a predisposition towards a particular sin.  You're comparing apples and oranges.  If you want an accurate comparison, compare what drives the person to perform particular sinful acts.  A person with an over active libido and a homosexual person would be an appropriate comparison.

Quote:Even the CCC (2359) says "homosexual persons" are called to chastity.  Then listen to the CCC's definition of chastity:

Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. (2337)
How then can one called to be conformed to the image of Christ integrate [homo]sexuality with his bodily and spiritual; being, if even the CCC calls the acts of homosexuality "gravely disordered?"

How can someone who is extremely horny integrate his inordinate concupisence within the person?  By bearing his Cross, applying his will, and acting as God intended.  By assuming an ordered and ordinate lifestyle.

Quote:CCC 2333:
Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.

How then with this definition should we counsel a "homosexual person" to live chastely as a "homosexual person" if he is called to accept his sexual identity which is complimentary and not symmetrical?

His sexual identity is that as he was born: a male or female.  He accepts that identity be refraining from acts that are unnatural.  He accepts that identity by not becoming a priest because his sexuality is unfit for the priesthood as is one who cannot remain chaste.  The sexual identity here refers to more than just coitus partners.  It refers to gender roles, the roles of the male in the priesthood, etc.
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Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - by Historian - 02-22-2011, 04:05 PM



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