There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest
(02-27-2011, 02:58 AM)Catholic Johnny Wrote:
(02-27-2011, 02:39 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: :laughing:

Anyhow, you have another problem.  Since it's not in the DSM, it's not a psychological malady.  The Church, imprudently, tied the fitness of a candidate to the whim of the medical establishment which is really a political organization at this point.  The DSM changes almost annually -- almost as often as the Novus Ordo Missae.  It's a moving target.  Homosexual candidates after it was removed in 1973 did not suffer from a psychic illness therefore were legitimate candidates for the priesthood by that measure.

You also have the small problem that you said homosexuality as an illness is "dispelled by sound doctrine".  Therefore, the DSM was obviously (har) incorrect to diagnose homosexuality as a mental illness.  Why? Because of your personal interpretation of scripture that identifies it as a condemned "identity" rather than an illness such as alcoholism.  Why? Because you were afraid of the consequences of that - you knew your argument hinged on 1 Cor and it would fall like a house of cards otherwise.
 

As far as I'm concerned Mr. Quis, you lost that argument [identity].  I get it - your forum, your rules of debate - can't embarass the host.  Please however, do not delete this thread without a warning as I would like to archive it for all the valuable resources cited and lively exchanges contained therein.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I don't delete threads here without grave reason.  I suffer from intellectual honesty.  It's a sickness not found in the DSM either.

Quote:
Quote:You aren't chasing the truth.  You're chasing "the best argument" to get what you want.

I don't believe I have tried to attribute motives to your POV, Mr. Quis, and I respectfully ask you not to do that with me.

I'm not attributing motives.  Your motive may be the good of the Church and the love of Christ.  I'm commenting on your actions.  You are pursuing the best tactic even if it excludes intellectual honesty and the reading of Church documents in good faith.

Quote:
Quote:Homosexuals cannot be priests because the Church says so and she has the sole right to determine, by whatever measure she chooses, who gets to be a priest.  That's the bottom line.  You don't need any other arguments.  If someone wants to know why, they can read the CDF statement.
 

Well yes - but they are, and you have not begun to unpack the reasons for this.  You have gone even further than that by saying they receive grace from the sacrament of orders even when they commit mortal sin by submitting themselves for the sacrament.  Aquinas said they increase their trespass by every action of their office.  Seems like a strange effect of grace to me.  But I digress.

The reason for this is simple: there are homosexual and homosexual-sympathizing bishops and vocations directors.  Probably also pedophile bishops who are blackmailed into things.  They flooded the seminaries with homosexuals and people sympathetic to them.  This isn't rocket science.

I can explain the rationale how they receive grace and at the same time cause disgrace and increase their trespass.  It goes to the indefectibility of the Church and her Sacraments.  If someone receives a Sacrament in a state of mortal sin, the grace of the Sacrament is withheld until they are cleansed of mortal sin.  It doesn't matter if the guy is a homosexual or just had a dirty thought about the blond in pew 1.  If that's the case, then they would not receive the efficacy of the Sacrament of Holy Orders until such a time, and all the Sacraments they confected that are dependent on that would be invalid.  Instead the person receives Sanctifying Grace in Holy Orders that the Sacrament takes effect.

Quote:Objection 1. It would seem that goodness of life is not required of those who receive Orders. For by Orders a man is ordained to the dispensation of the sacraments. But the sacraments can be administered by good and wicked. Therefore goodness of life is not requisite.

Reply to Objection 1. Just as the sinner dispenses sacraments validly, so does he receive validly the sacrament of Orders, and as he dispenses unworthily, even so he receives unworthily.

Since we're on Aquinas, you also have this problem:

Quote:Reply to Objection 3. So long as a minister of the Church who is in mortal sin is recognized by the Church, his subject must receive the sacraments from him, since this is the purpose for which he is bound to him

The Church does not punish the parish for the priest's bad actions or sin.  The priest heaps coals upon his head by acting as a priest while in a state of mortal sin.


Quote:
Quote:All this other crap you've spewed about how homosexuals can't be Christians and your mental gymnastics about the efficacy of Holy Orders on a homosexual only weakens your standing and your right to be taken seriously.  The best way to make a convincing argument is to use the truth, and to use it consistently.

When I offer authoritative proof texts from the Bible in a Catholic sense and meaning, you dismiss me as a Protestant or accuse me of private interpretations.  Its all good.  Its your website.  I'm just a guest.  We tackled all this previously.  The record is out there.

You can whine about the bully pulpit, but I've let you say whatever you wanted.

If you want to complain I've stifled the conversation unfairly by demanding you use Catholic sources, here's an idea.  Take your original post and post it at Catholic Answers  http://www.catholic.com.  Really, please try it.   Let us know the results.

Quote:
Quote:Anyhow, I'll keep watching you and voxp run in circles trying to outthink the Doctrine and come up with a better argument.  It's tilting at a windmill, though.  If they don't listen to the CDF saying "no homosexual priests" they sure as heck aren't going to listen to you with your inconsistent and inscrutable arguments.  I'll just add color commentary from time to time.

Carry on.

You do that, sir.  Have a great Lord's Day and pray for us neo-heretics and quasi-protestants.   ;D

Great, and you can pray for us quasi-modernists.  :tiphat:
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Re: There is No Such Thing as a Homosexual Catholic Priest - by Historian - 02-27-2011, 03:25 AM



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