Another thread on "lying".
#11
I do believe that more information will come to light as more planned parenthood clinic workers may begin to defect under pressure.  I predict there will be alot of movement in this area in the coming year and we should pray about it.  We should also all call our local and state politicians and tell them what we think about these issues.

I do think the level of deception used by live action was too much, but hopefully good will come of it now that it is done.
Reply
#12
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:Bearing false witness against one's neighbor is intrinsically evil, and the Church puts lying with the intention to deceive under the umbrella of that commandment

Emphasis mine. I agree, Lisa. A lie is generally regarded by the Church as to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error, injuring man's relation to truth and to his neighbor. However, what here is meant by "error"? Yes, it would be evil for a man to intentionally lead his fellow man away from the truths of the faith or, on a more basic level, any truth that would legitimately benefit him in someway, or a truth that he is entitled to know.

I think a theological distinction can be made here. The deception I believe to be morally licit does not frustrate a man's relation to truth, but rather frustrates the committing of acts. It must be said that in the aforementioned scenario of people lying to save jewish refugees, the people in question did in fact lie with the intent to deceive ... but not with the intent to deprive them of the truth, but to frustrate the committing of an act.

... or I suppose one could say that this form of deception concerns itself only with deliberately preventing manifestations or the implementation of evil ideologies, whether it be pro-abortion, Nazism, etc.

miss fluffy Wrote:I do think the level of deception used by live action was too much,

Throwing molotov cocktails or implanting car bombs on abortionist's cars is "too much". Impersonating a hooker and hiding a camcorder? Seriously, c'mon.

Have we all forgotten the identical methods used to expose Acorn which eventually led to their defunding? The tactics used by the pro-life movement have been utter failures. It's time to get serious. Enough with the marches, the speeches, the books, the inspirational figures, etc. Get tough, get angry and get dirty. This is in fact a war and it is one that has cost over 46 million innocent lives since 1978 ... and we're all thrown into a moral conundrum by a courageous young lady who used the most basic of undercover tactics to expose them for the barbaric monolith that they are? Sad ...

Reply
#13
There's no such thing as lying with no intent to deceive. 
Reply
#14
(02-21-2011, 01:22 AM)DrBombay Wrote: There's no such thing as lying with no intent to deceive. 

Is this addressed to me? If so, re-read my last post in which I attempt to make the case that not all forms of deception are evil:

St. Thomas Aquinas: “a man may be deceived by what we say or do, because we do not declare our purpose or meaning to him. Now we are not always bound to do this” (ST II-II, 40, art. 3).

Dr. Peter Kreeft, in defense of Live Action, states that St. John Chrysostom considered deceit used to save a life as morally licit.
Reply
#15
(02-21-2011, 01:32 AM)Joshua Wrote:
(02-21-2011, 01:22 AM)DrBombay Wrote: There's no such thing as lying with no intent to deceive. 

Is this addressed to me? If so, re-read my last post in which I attempt to make the case that not all forms of deception are evil:

St. Thomas Aquinas: “a man may be deceived by what we say or do, because we do not declare our purpose or meaning to him. Now we are not always bound to do this” (ST II-II, 40, art. 3).

Dr. Peter Kreeft, in defense of Live Action, states that St. John Chrysostom considered deceit used to save a life as morally licit.

Not really directed at anyone, just in general.  Regardless of the outcome, every lie is an attempt to deceive. 
Reply
#16
(02-20-2011, 11:00 PM)Joshua Wrote:
(02-20-2011, 10:19 PM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(02-20-2011, 10:16 PM)Joshua Wrote: (3) Would Aquinas find the day-to-day occurrence of police and military using espionage and deception to bring drug dealers, rapists, murderers, terrorists, etc. to justice?

How are drug dealers any worse than liquor store salesmen or bartenders?

What? ...

Just about every booze under the sun has its origins in monasteries. Take your non-Catholic puritanism elsewhere, please. Don't derail this thread.

LOL I'm not a Puritan and wasn't arguing against booze. I was basically saying I think it's ridiculous (and definitely not morally justified) for cops to use deception to catch drug dealers, especially since many drugs aren't any worse (morally speaking) than alcohol when used in moderation. And, yes, a lot of illegal drugs can be used in moderation.
Reply
#17
Resurrexi Wrote:LOL I'm not a Puritan and wasn't arguing against booze. I was basically saying I think it's ridiculous (and definitely not morally justified) for cops to use deception to catch drug dealers, especially since many drugs aren't any worse (morally speaking) than alcohol when used in moderation. And, yes, a lot of illegal drugs can be used in moderation.

Equating a bartender with a drug dealer is a brand of stupidity I have neither the time nor the inclination to address. Take this irrelevant topic elsewhere.
Reply
#18
What if drugs were sold in bars and booze on street corners?  Drug tenders and bar dealers as it were.  I think it's a relevant diversion. 
Reply
#19
(02-21-2011, 02:30 AM)DrBombay Wrote: What if drugs were sold in bars and booze on street corners?  Drug tenders and bar dealers as it were.  I think it's a relevant diversion. 

http://www.VisitIndependence.com/
Reply
#20
The police most definitely do use undercover operations to bait illegal alcohol sales.  Just that it usually involves selling alcohol to minors, or already drunk people.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)