Are The Jews Responsible For Christ's Death?
#1
I have to write a paper on this for a theology class. I always thought the Jews were responsible because of the phrase "His blood be on us and on our children." Kind of confused because the CCC seems to deny this. Was this the Church's position pre-VII? Thank you.

pax

Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus' death

597
    The historical complexity of Jesus' trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles' calls to conversion after Pentecost.385 Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept "the ignorance" of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders.386 Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd's cry: "His blood be on us and on our children!" a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence.387 As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

          . . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.388
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#2
Even before Vpoo the official stance was that not all the Jews were liable. But it didn't always play out that way in reality.
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#3
Quote: [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.388

Compare that to scripture:
1Thess2 Wrote:For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own coutrymen, even as they have from the Jews, [15] Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men;

[16] Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end.

Seems like they are cursed to me.

There are different levels to this like an onion.  I think it is similar to the Jews and the Babylonians.  The Jews slaughtered their babies in the ovens of Moloch.  So God used the Babylonians as the intruments of His wrath.  But, He cursed the Babylonians for slaughtering the Jews and had the Persians come and wipe them out in turn.  So same with us.  We are ultimately responsible for the death of Jesus due to our sins, something we are forced to watch and contemplate at every Mass (though it might be hard to contemplate this during a supper service).  However, God used the Jews as the means to render the Sacrifice that saves us.  Still, like the Babylonians, God still punishes the Jews for rejecting Jesus.  However, this is a punishment to the Talmudic religion.  A Jew who converts is our brother in Jesus.  And I believe they are still dear to God, and He will save a sizable chunk in the end.
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#4
No, that's not how it's always been, though like Baskerville said, even before V2 it wasn't like they were a cursed race in toto.  Part of the "curse" was the figure of the curse upon the fig tree; the end of the sacrificial priesthood and the Temple. 

Quote:And the chief priests and scribes, seeing the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying: Hosanna to the son of David; were moved with indignation.

[16] And said to him: Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus said to them: Yea, have you never read: Out of the mouth of infants and of sucklings thou hast perfected praise? [17] And leaving them, he went out of the city into Bethania, and remained there. [18] And in the morning, returning into the city, he was hungry. [19] And seeing a certain fig tree by the way side, he came to it, and found nothing on it but leaves only, and he saith to it: May no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And immediately the fig tree withered away. [20] And the disciples seeing it wondered, saying: How is it presently withered away?

[21] And Jesus answering, said to them: Amen, I say to you, if you shall have faith, and stagger not, not only this of the fig tree shall you do, but also if you shall say to this mountain, Take up and cast thyself into the sea, it shall be done. [22] And in all things whatsoever you shall ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive.


Quote:[11] And he entered into Jerusalem, into the temple: and having viewed all things round about, when now the eventide was come, he went out to Bethania with the twelve. [12] And the next day when they came out from Bethania, he was hungry. [13] And when he had seen afar off a fig tree having leaves, he came if perhaps he might find any thing on it. And when he was come to it, he found nothing but leaves. For it was not the time for figs. [14] And answering he said to it: May no man hereafter eat fruit of thee any more for ever. And his disciples heard it.

And when evening was come, he went forth out of the city. [20] And when they passed by in the morning they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

[21] And Peter remembering, said to him: Rabbi, behold the fig tree, which thou didst curse, is withered away.

The Jews who were perfidious and did not follow Christ suffered that curse, lost their religion, and invented Rabbincal Judaism as an ersatz Judaism.

The other important thing to realize is the "curse" is not upon a Jewish ethnicity but upon followers of the Synagogue of Satan.  I.e., a false religion.

There is a lot of symbolism and stuff to dig through to get a complete answer.  But to think only the multitude there suffered the "curse" is not correct according to previous teaching.  Nor is it completely correct to assume we don't know the depth of Judas' sin when Christ said it would have been better for Judas had he not been born.  Sure, we don't know exactly how much was imputable (there is a good chance he was possessed, etc.).  But the CCC makes it too murky, which is a problem with the CCC in general.  They downplay a lot of stuff.  Judas did something so bad God said it would have been better if he hadn't been born, and then Judas committed suicide.  The Church would never proclaim someone in hell - thus this is true in a sense "The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. "  In fact at one time people wanted to make Pilate a Saint.

But in another sense, it's pretty clear what God's thoughts and judgment on Judas was.  Blowing smoke around about that isn't helpful.

Since this is for school, I won't hand you the answer.  ;D

Go over to New Advent and search for information there.  You can read the writings of the Fathers, etc.  They use Google for their site search, so you can find things easily.  You can also try http://www.papalencyclicals.net/
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#5
Oh, why not? An insightful and elegantly balanced piece from Catholic777's blog:
http://renegadetrad.blogspot.com/2010/02...-jews.html
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#6
(03-01-2011, 12:31 AM)MarcoTheBane Wrote:The Jews didn't kill Me, you scum did.

:laughing: I think I'll just write this and turn it in to Sister and see what happens. Thanks dude.
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#7
Nah, it was the Romans.  And in return for that, Latin killed the Romans later.  Now it's killing me.  Q.E.D.  :tiphat:
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#8
I think there are many who played a hand.  The Pharisees are condemned for several reasons, mostly their unbelief despite having every proof laid before them (Matthew 11).  The Pharisees and their constant nagging about Jesus and his miracles led up to his arrest, and I think Herod had a bit to do with that as well.  Judas turned him in for some coin, Pilate knew that Jesus was innocent, and didn't deserve crucifixion, but he kowtowed to the Pharisees and had him killed anyways.  The soldiers carried out their duties, even though they should have known better, and we can't forget the crowd that shouted for the release of Barabbas.  In many ways, the whole history of mankind led up to this moment, and so it's hard to say one group or another was fully responsible.
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#9
(03-01-2011, 01:46 AM)miss_fluffy Wrote: I think there are many who played a hand.  The Pharisees are condemned for several reasons, mostly their unbelief despite having every proof laid before them (Matthew 11).  The Pharisees and their constant nagging about Jesus and his miracles led up to his arrest, and I think Herod had a bit to do with that as well.  Judas turned him in for some coin, Pilate knew that Jesus was innocent, and didn't deserve crucifixion, but he kowtowed to the Pharisees and had him killed anyways.  The soldiers carried out their duties, even though they should have known better, and we can't forget the crowd that shouted for the release of Barabbas.  In many ways, the whole history of mankind led up to this moment, and so it's hard to say one group or another was fully responsible.

This
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#10
(03-01-2011, 10:55 AM)Baskerville Wrote:
(03-01-2011, 01:46 AM)miss_fluffy Wrote: I think there are many who played a hand.  The Pharisees are condemned for several reasons, mostly their unbelief despite having every proof laid before them (Matthew 11).  The Pharisees and their constant nagging about Jesus and his miracles led up to his arrest, and I think Herod had a bit to do with that as well.  Judas turned him in for some coin, Pilate knew that Jesus was innocent, and didn't deserve crucifixion, but he kowtowed to the Pharisees and had him killed anyways.  The soldiers carried out their duties, even though they should have known better, and we can't forget the crowd that shouted for the release of Barabbas.  In many ways, the whole history of mankind led up to this moment, and so it's hard to say one group or another was fully responsible.

This

Ditto
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