Helen Thomas: Jews control White House and Congress
#31
(03-23-2011, 04:17 PM)mikemac Wrote:
(03-23-2011, 11:25 AM)Alabama Trad Wrote: Richard Nixon's Israeli policy was one of maintaining a balance of power between Israel and the Arabs. Barack Obama's Israeli policy is far from what they want it to be.

I am not pro-Israel, nor am I anti-Israel.

I'm not the smartest guy on the block but I am a history major and it's astounding to see this stuff. The fact is American geopolitical interests are, more commonly, advanced by a policy that encourages defense of the Israeli state. Israel is a stabilizing force in the Muslim world (can you imagine the level of barbarism in the 'modern' Muslim world were there not a powerful, democratic, non-Muslim country in the region that wasn't afraid to use force when necessary), they are an excellent ally that could be needed in any number of hypothetical instances, etc.

I'll be the first to point out that it's necessary for Jews to convert to the One True Church to be saved, that modern rabbinical Judaism is antithetical to Christianity, and that American Jews are often pushing this country closer to hell with the morality (or lack thereof) that they espouse.

I draw the line when I hear people making blanket assumptions about Jews controlling American foreign policy, starting wars, etc., when all reasonable evidence points to another conclusion.

Alabama Trad why do you say "American geopolitical interests are, more commonly, advanced by a policy that encourages defense of the Israeli state."?  Because you have been told that?  Because you have been programed to believe that?  This is completely contrary to reality.  US defense of the Israeli state is detrimental to the security of the United States as you'll see by watching the video series titled Occupation 101.  You will see Jews, both inside and outside of Israel saying this, the voices of the silent majority.  And you will see retired US diplomats saying this.

The US administrations have been giving the state of Israel 3 billion dollars a year, the highest amount given to any country.  The second highest is 2 billion a year going to Hosni Mubarak's Egypt so he maintains a friendly Israeli policy, again for the benefit of the state of Israel.  All from the US tax payer.  Most US states don't get near this amount from the Federal government.

And contrary to what you have been told, the two state US solution to the Palestinian/Israeli problem is not what most Jews both inside and outside of Israel want.  These Jews, the voices of the silent majority want a one state solution with equal rights for both Jews and Palestinians.  Alabama Trad you are a history buff.  Do yourself a favor and watch the voices of the silent majority tell you what they want in the video series Occupation 101.  It's in my signature file below.

And again contrary to what you said the Middle East is destabilized simply because of US support for the state of Israel.  Muslims biggest contention with the US is it's unfounded support for the state of Israel.  She is right, their homeland is Poland, Germany and the United States.  With six decades of journalism Helen Thomas should know what she is talking about.  She is right again when she says, it is not a secret.

It seems even some Catholics have fallen for the Christian Zionist false prophets like John Haggi, Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson.  

Been told that? No, I've done my research. I have a masters degree in history and I've looked stuff up myself, thank you. Not everyone who rejects a conspiracy theory is a drone.

I find it a little insulting that you tell me I've been programmed to believe something and then you point me to a movie to show me I'm wrong.

First of all, $3 bn is not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things. It may be more than the U.S. gives to other nations, but look at our gross national product and what our government takes in (and worse, spends) each year. $3 bn is hardly more than a drop in the bucket.

You actually think the U.S. only gives money to Egypt to maintain a pro-Israeli position? That's pretty laughable. The Egyptian government, in the modern world, did more to keep radical Islamists at bay that almost any other institution in that region. That benefitted U.S. interests apart from Israel.

You are taking Muslims at their word when they say they just want Israel gone? Muslims hate the Western world, bro. They always have, they always will. Read up on your history. Read the Qu'ran. It is a religion of hate, death and violence. No doubt, the Talmud is bad itself, but it's ludicrous that you're willing to say, "Well the Muslims say this, so we have to take it at face value."

Helen Thomas is now being lauded on a traditional Catholic forum. That's a tragedy. She is a raging Leftist, an enemy of the Faith, etc. Yet she's cool because she thinks Jews control America? Seriously, that sounds like something a drunk celebrity would ramble on about, but not something serious academics hold.

This has nothing to do with Zionism, at least from my perspective.

I'd be thrilled if the land in Israel belonged to the Church, if the pope had the papal states again, etc. But the fact is, given the current geopolitical situation in the Middle East and reality today, support for Israel is the only sane American policy. Stop looking for boogymen.
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#32
(03-23-2011, 08:14 PM)Alabama Trad Wrote: Been told that? No, I've done my research. I have a masters degree in history and I've looked stuff up myself, thank you. Not everyone who rejects a conspiracy theory is a drone.

I find it a little insulting that you tell me I've been programmed to believe something and then you point me to a movie to show me I'm wrong.

Great, your a guy with a degree and an opinion, just like all the NeoCons who belong to the CFR, Project for the New American Century or any of the "credible" think tanks.  If watching movie is beneath you, Maybe you should read "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy", a book by John Mearsheimer, Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago, and Stephen Walt, Professor of International Relations at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University.  They are a couple guy with degrees and I think their assessment of the situation is much more in tune with reality than yours.

Here's a little vid for you by Prof. Mearsheimer, who is Jewish, in which he exposes the NeoCons and Zionists for what they are, warmongers!

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#33
Here's my commentary on the video ... and yes, I have read the book. Some good points, some is quite a stretch.

-Neoconservatives were indeed the driving influence behind the Iraq War. Agreed.

-"They were supported by key organizations in the lobby like AIPAC." Okay. So since a major Israeli organization supported the war (which 77% of Americans supported and the vast majority of thinktanks did as well) then the Jews are dominating America. Hilarious.

-AIPAC is definitely pro-Israeli. Duh. It was indeed in Israel's interests to be rid of Saddam. Big deal. I am not arguing that. I am arguing the ridiculous implicit assertion that Israeli interests and American interests are mutually exclusive and necessarily at odds.

-He greatly overestimates opposition to the war prior to the war.

The level of intellectual dishonesty and/or cluelessness here is astounding. "Israel wanted us to attack Iraq, we attacked Iraq, so we obeyed Israel."

Do you realize how shallow that line of reasoning is?

Here's the dirtiest little secret of all. Psssst. ... Iraq is more stable than it has been than at any point in modern history, it is no longer a threat to the region, nor is it a threat to American interests.

The book is no more impressive than the video. There is a reason these guys have largely been marginalized to sensationalist websites and become used pawns of hate groups.

The reason this makes me SICK is there are good traditionalist Catholics getting sucked up in this nonsense. I have found in my own experience that it's the real sensationalist fringers that get all their information from websites and YouTube that get drawn into this "Israel dominates America" silliness. Read some history books, study foreign policy realism, and make a serious assessment of the Islamic world, then reduce it to "the Jews are making us go to war".

Wow.
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#34
The "righteous goy" strikes again!
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#35
Three billion dollars is a ton of money. Aside from being $9.09 for every man, woman, and child in America, think of the things that it could pay for.  It could heavily reduce pollution in Lake Michigan, it could pay for high-speed rail in Wisconsin, or any other number of things.

Or, it could just go back the taxpayers. 
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#36
You keep saying that the support of Israel in the Middle East is conducive to American interests.  WHY!?  You don't answer that. 

What good has it done, what good is it doing, and what good will it do?
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#37
(03-23-2011, 10:11 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: Three billion dollars is a ton of money. Aside from being $9.09 for every man, woman, and child in America, think of the things that it could pay for.  It could heavily reduce pollution in Lake Michigan, it could pay for high-speed rail in Wisconsin, or any other number of things.

Or, it could just go back the taxpayers. 

It's amazing the hand wringing that's done over $3 bn given to Israel when the United States has a Socialist system of entitlements amounting to $70 tn (with a 't', yes) that will be our ruin. $3 bn is a lot of money if you're Italy. It is not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things if you are the United States.

As for the "righteous goy" comments - whatever, lol. Pretty weird, aside from ad hominem.
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#38
(03-23-2011, 10:13 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: You keep saying that the support of Israel in the Middle East is conducive to American interests.  WHY!?  You don't answer that. 

What good has it done, what good is it doing, and what good will it do?

I have answered that.

It's important to have a democratic ally in a region that is prone to religious and political extremism, has proven to be a hotbed of violence (terrorism and military aggression), and is important to our economic and national interests.

That alone justifies a measly $3 billion a year when you look at the rest of the United States budget.

On top of that, it's vital to maintain the balance of power in the Middle East. If Israel's military floundered or showed signs of weakness, and the country were overrun by Muslim countries, the results would be disastrous. We would probably be exiled from the region or drawn into a much larger conflict than we have had to engage in.

Furthermore, this is a two-way street. Israel has supported American ventures and interests as much as any nation in the world since its creation. Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy friendship in diplomacy.

Finally, Israel is a nuclear power. If the United States did not support the conventional arsenal or national interests of the Israelis at this point, and that country had its back against the wall, you would be looking at the very real possibility of nuclear warfare. It's the same reason we don't want India destabilized, or we wouldn't want Britain destabilized, etc.
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#39
(03-23-2011, 09:58 PM)Alabama Trad Wrote: Here's my commentary on the video ... and yes, I have read the book. Some good points, some is quite a stretch.

-Neoconservatives were indeed the driving influence behind the Iraq War. Agreed.

-"They were supported by key organizations in the lobby like AIPAC." Okay. So since a major Israeli organization supported the war (which 77% of Americans supported and the vast majority of thinktanks did as well) then the Jews are dominating America. Hilarious.

-AIPAC is definitely pro-Israeli. Duh. It was indeed in Israel's interests to be rid of Saddam. Big deal. I am not arguing that. I am arguing the ridiculous implicit assertion that Israeli interests and American interests are mutually exclusive and necessarily at odds.

-He greatly overestimates opposition to the war prior to the war.

The level of intellectual dishonesty and/or cluelessness here is astounding. "Israel wanted us to attack Iraq, we attacked Iraq, so we obeyed Israel."

Do you realize how shallow that line of reasoning is?

Here's the dirtiest little secret of all. Psssst. ... Iraq is more stable than it has been than at any point in modern history, it is no longer a threat to the region, nor is it a threat to American interests.

The book is no more impressive than the video. There is a reason these guys have largely been marginalized to sensationalist websites and become used pawns of hate groups.

The reason this makes me SICK is there are good traditionalist Catholics getting sucked up in this nonsense. I have found in my own experience that it's the real sensationalist fringers that get all their information from websites and YouTube that get drawn into this "Israel dominates America" silliness. Read some history books, study foreign policy realism, and make a serious assessment of the Islamic world, then reduce it to "the Jews are making us go to war".

Wow.

Read some books! Hey great idea, I think I'll try that one day... You may have a degree, but you aren't  the only one who has ever studied this issue.

My take on it is best summed up by what Fr. Denis Fahey pointed out years ago.  The "Jews" are just the leading group in what Fr. Fahey described as Organised Naturalism.  As a group, they are very adept at organizing and influencing other to achieve their ultimate goals, it's that simple. They see themselves as the true messiah destine to rule over us goyim.  

I always love the way Neocons justify every thing with a claim of "it's in America's interests", as if America has a manifest destiny to rule the world !  "America's interests" is used to justify countless sins.
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#40
You and I don't disagree on the menace that is the false religion of modern rabbinical Judaism. It is a naturalistic religion that is antithetical to Catholicism.

We agree.

We disagree on this conspiracy business about Israel controlling American foreign policy.

Seems like you just have a problem with realism. Foreign policy is about power and national interests, whether you like it or not. Jimmy Carter is a good example of a president that didn't understand that, and well, he was a loser and is generally regarded as one of our worst leaders.

It's not about "manifest destiny". You don't have to believe America is a city on a hill to believe America ought to act in her own interests. You don't think other countries would if they could?
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