masturbation
#11
As someone who is totally messed up from bad formation, I have some thoughts on this.  I think it's important when directing your children to address the behavior, and not them.  For example comments like "you're a dirty boy/girl for doing that!!" can really lead to shame.  I think it's important to address the behavior very specifically and calmly "that's not what your (insert name for body part) is for. Stop that right now."  If they ask why, you can tell them it's simply not proper, or if they keep asking, you feel they can understand, you can explain to them that pleasuring themselves spoils them for marriage, and makes them less able to make babies with their spouse. 

In reality, this is true, and there are some in the  medical establishment who know it.  If you delve deeply into fertility medicine, issues such as this are addressed.  While it doesn't always follow, masturbation can become habitual and there is a real problem with wasting seed in both men and women.  Women will wear out the glands that produce the fluids necessary for sperm motility.  Men will wear out their faculties and have lower sperm counts.  Practically speaking, masturbating while entertaining lustful fantasies can set up both men and women to be disappointed in their spouse.  It just won't feel as good when your spouse does it if you are so used to taking care of it yourself.  It very commonly causes sexual dysfunction in marriage, with the offending party preferring self-abuse to relations with their spouse.  Again, people in psychiatric fields know this, but are in denial about it.
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#12
Any veneral pleasure had outside the context of marriage is a mortal sin that damns to hell.  The pleasure reward, which is base, that is had at copulation is a natural gross function of the body.  It is only licitly enjoyed within proper boundaries within marriage, but still, its only a gross reward.  The real reward is knowing that you are cooperating with God in the creation of a child, and raising that Child in the Catholic Faith through proper education.

Masturbation will always be mortally sinful in any and all circumstances, because it is an abuse of the nature of our creation, and it is a grave matter because that is how God made us.

Sexual pleasure is a gross simple and lowly human function.  People are fascinated by it because they do not spend their time on more profound things, which is really sad.  Really, no one should have sex, even within the context of marriage, just to satiate themselves.  This was the common opinion amongst theologians prior to the 30's 40's and 50's, when people started becoming more lax.

DZ 1159 "The act of marriage exercised for pleasure only is entirely free of all fault and venial defect." - Condemned.

So, even within marriage, the marriage act must be ordered, and it would be, if people would arise to spiritual perfect, wherein gross bodily functions will be looked at as they are, gross and bodily.

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#13
(03-28-2011, 11:47 AM)jordanawef Wrote: Masturbation will always be mortally sinful in any and all circumstances, because it is an abuse of the nature of our creation, and it is a grave matter because that is how God made us.
The word "masturbation" does not, as far as I know, include intent and knowledge. So, masturbation will always be a grave matter, and mortally sinful if one has the intent and knowledge required to make it so.

The intent and knowledge is common, but it should not be ignored in such a statement because of how serious it is.

Quote:So, even within marriage, the marriage act must be ordered, and it would be, if people would arise to spiritual perfect, wherein gross bodily functions will be looked at as they are, gross and bodily.
Sounds to be straying into Gnosticism. There is nothing inherently wrong with the body. It is part of our nature as created by God.
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#14
This is one of those topics that always seems to go at least ten pages long. :popcorn:

A blast from the past:

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...872.0.html
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#15
(03-28-2011, 11:47 AM)jordanawef Wrote: Really, no one should have sex, even within the context of marriage, just to satiate themselves.  This was the common opinion amongst theologians prior to the 30's 40's and 50's, when people started becoming more lax.
...
So, even within marriage, the marriage act must be ordered, and it would be, if people would arise to spiritual perfect, wherein gross bodily functions will be looked at as they are, gross and bodily.

That's a bit Jansenistic.

Quote:DZ 1159 "The act of marriage exercised for pleasure only is entirely free of all fault and venial defect." - Condemned.

That comes from St. Augustine who stated that it was at most a venial sin, though always not entirely free of blame.  However, that is balanced by the fact that we should not burn up and it is better to collect on the marital debt than risk grave sin.

Cf. Augustine - On Marriage and Concupiscence.
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#16
(03-28-2011, 11:47 AM)jordanawef Wrote: Sexual pleasure is a gross simple and lowly human function.  People are fascinated by it because they do not spend their time on more profound things, which is really sad.  Really, no one should have sex, even within the context of marriage, just to satiate themselves.  This was the common opinion amongst theologians prior to the 30's 40's and 50's, when people started becoming more lax.
Stupidest thing I have ever read.
It is part of a healthy loving relationship between a husband and wife. If we werent meant to enjoy it, it wouldnt feel good.
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#17
(03-28-2011, 01:55 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: That comes from St. Augustine who stated that it was at most a venial sin, though always not entirely free of blame.  However, that is balanced by the fact that we should not burn up and it is better to collect on the marital debt than risk grave sin.

Cf. Augustine - On Marriage and Concupiscence.

So, marriage is like banking? "honey, what is the balance?", "I'll have to do some calculations, but you owe me at least 50 this year", "Do you take payments?", "Yes, this is a good time too, with the interests rates as they are".

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#18
(03-28-2011, 02:00 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(03-28-2011, 01:55 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: That comes from St. Augustine who stated that it was at most a venial sin, though always not entirely free of blame.  However, that is balanced by the fact that we should not burn up and it is better to collect on the marital debt than risk grave sin.

Cf. Augustine - On Marriage and Concupiscence.

So, marriage is like banking? "honey, what is the balance?", "I'll have to do some calculations, but you owe me at least 50 this year", "Do you take payments?", "Yes, this is a good time too, with the interests rates as they are".

Theology often is. 

Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.  Matt 5:26
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#19
(03-28-2011, 02:02 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(03-28-2011, 02:00 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(03-28-2011, 01:55 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: That comes from St. Augustine who stated that it was at most a venial sin, though always not entirely free of blame.  However, that is balanced by the fact that we should not burn up and it is better to collect on the marital debt than risk grave sin.

Cf. Augustine - On Marriage and Concupiscence.

So, marriage is like banking? "honey, what is the balance?", "I'll have to do some calculations, but you owe me at least 50 this year", "Do you take payments?", "Yes, this is a good time too, with the interests rates as they are".

Theology often is. 

Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.  Matt 5:26


Indeed! Et demita nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimmitimus debitoribus nostris.

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#20
(03-28-2011, 11:58 AM)Rosarium Wrote:
(03-28-2011, 11:47 AM)jordanawef Wrote: Masturbation will always be mortally sinful in any and all circumstances, because it is an abuse of the nature of our creation, and it is a grave matter because that is how God made us.
The word "masturbation" does not, as far as I know, include intent and knowledge. So, masturbation will always be a grave matter, and mortally sinful if one has the intent and knowledge required to make it so.

The intent and knowledge is common, but it should not be ignored in such a statement because of how serious it is.

Quote:So, even within marriage, the marriage act must be ordered, and it would be, if people would arise to spiritual perfect, wherein gross bodily functions will be looked at as they are, gross and bodily.
Sounds to be straying into Gnosticism. There is nothing inherently wrong with the body. It is part of our nature as created by God.

Rosarium:  I don't mean that the pleasure function is gross as in sickly, nasty, or something to avert to, but rather, gross in the sense of lacking fine distinction and crude, both of which should not carry with them a perceived evil or mal connotation.  Lifting weights is crude and lacking fine distinction, but that can also be a healthy and good act.  Eating is crude and lacking fine distinction, or gross, but it is still morally good and necessary.  Defecating and urinating are gross bodily functions, but those are both good things, nonetheless, gross and bodily.  My manner of speech was dangerously incomplete for the audience of the fish eaters forums, for that I apologize.

Sexual pleasure function is gross, bodily, and good, but only secondary and an accessory to the principle ends of the marriage act, which is the procreation of children.  Martial act can not be done solely for pleasure, which shows us that pleasure is not the primary end, and that pleasure is not the most important part of the marriage act, far from it.
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