masturbation
#21
What about people that cant have kids? should they abstain?
Reply
#22
Let me check on that.
Reply
#23
Ok, if they are already married, and they become impotent, then no, it is not necessary for them to abstain because there are secondary ends of coitus, one of which St. Thomas describes as "coitus for the sake of mutual comfort," which is actually virtuous, namely, of justice.

If they are not already married, and one of the parties to marriage was impotent before the marriage, and will be perpetually impotent, would invalidate the marriage by virtue of natural law.

Now, how would they know?  It would be obvious, because the invalidating kind of impotency is called "impotentia coeundi," or, "the inability to have coitus."  Coitus, in this sense, means that the man can get sperm into a complete and perfect vagina with womb.
Reply
#24
Impotence prevents a valid marriage, but sterility does not.
Reply
#25
(03-29-2011, 10:57 AM)jordanawef Wrote: Let me check on that.

You had to check on that?  If you don't already know the basics of catechesis regarding this subject, perhaps you should allow others who are more learned in these matters answer such questions.
Reply
#26
Sterility is called "impotentia generandi," and is a kind of impotence, it is just not a diriment nor an impedient impediment of matrimony.
Reply
#27
(03-27-2011, 02:05 AM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: It's like anything else.  All you can do is tell them it's wrong, if you catch them enforce the rules, etc.  I don't think there's a magic answer to this; just the usual parenting stuff, a lot of prayer, and a glass of wine after they finally go to bed.  That's how I survive, though usually I have a Coke or coffee rather than wine.

Best advice in the thread.  That "after the kids finally go to bed" time is practically a sacramental for me.  It's definitely needed.
Reply
#28
(03-28-2011, 01:58 PM)CanadianCatholic Wrote:
(03-28-2011, 11:47 AM)jordanawef Wrote: Sexual pleasure is a gross simple and lowly human function.  People are fascinated by it because they do not spend their time on more profound things, which is really sad.  Really, no one should have sex, even within the context of marriage, just to satiate themselves.  This was the common opinion amongst theologians prior to the 30's 40's and 50's, when people started becoming more lax.
Stupidest thing I have ever read.
It is part of a healthy loving relationship between a husband and wife. If we werent meant to enjoy it, it wouldnt feel good.

If it didn't feel good, we wouldn't have any desire to do it, and we would not fulfill God's command to procreate.  If sex was terrible or even indifferent - we would have become extinct a long, long time ago because fallen mankind wouldn't have sex just to fulfill the will of God, so there really had to be an incentive.  I believe God made sex feel good as an incentive to do it, but only under the correct parameters (i.e. marriage and for procreation, or at least open to the possibility of procreation - not just to "get off," that is simply mutual masturbation).

But, I really don't feel I should post any longer on this topic since I am a celibate man who is, especially at the current state in my life, dealing with extreme temptations of lust - and unfortunately I often give in.  It is really difficult in this day and age to deal with lust - women are the most beautiful creation of God and it is even more difficult when every time I turn the corner I see more than I need to of their exquisite form.  Pray for me.
Reply
#29
(03-29-2011, 04:50 PM)Nic Wrote:
(03-28-2011, 01:58 PM)CanadianCatholic Wrote:
(03-28-2011, 11:47 AM)jordanawef Wrote: Sexual pleasure is a gross simple and lowly human function.  People are fascinated by it because they do not spend their time on more profound things, which is really sad.  Really, no one should have sex, even within the context of marriage, just to satiate themselves.  This was the common opinion amongst theologians prior to the 30's 40's and 50's, when people started becoming more lax.
Stupidest thing I have ever read.
It is part of a healthy loving relationship between a husband and wife. If we werent meant to enjoy it, it wouldnt feel good.

If it didn't feel good, we wouldn't have any desire to do it, and we would not fulfill God's command to procreate.  If sex was terrible or even indifferent - we would have become extinct a long, long time ago because fallen mankind wouldn't have sex just to fulfill the will of God, so there really had to be an incentive.  I believe God made sex feel good as an incentive to do it, but only under the correct parameters (i.e. marriage and for procreation, or at least open to the possibility of procreation - not just to "get off," that is simply mutual masturbation).

I honestly think people think too hard about this.  Arguing that its ok because it feels good is ridiculous as there are other things that feel good that are harmful to us.  Sex within marriage is fine because its the procreative act.  It is within a union established by God, its a good thing.  We don't need to look at the physical ramifications of it to establish its virtue.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#30
(Pardon this clumsy and wordy reply, love alabama, but here are a few of my thoughts on the question.)

(03-26-2011, 10:35 PM)love alabama Wrote: Why is masturbation sinful?

. . . because pleasure is the secondary function of the generative faculty; procreation is the primary function of generative faculty: The secondary function (sexual pleasure) is ordered to complement and tend to the fulfillment of the primary function (procreation); the primary function (procreation) cannot be logically said to complement or tend to the fulfillment of the secondary function (sexual pleasure). (Presumably, it is not the will to have a child that provides sexual stimulation.)

Moreover, the natural primary function (for a male: ejaculation of sperm-bearing semen; for a female: this ejaculation's complementary, inductive lubricant from the Bartholin's glands) can be, under certain naturally-occurring physical or psychological conditions, accomplished without the secondary function (sexual pleasure). The secondary function (sexual pleasure), however, cannot be naturally separated from the primary function (the emission of either of these fluids). (There are always exceptional cases in which a physical condition prevents these secretions from taking place, but, in these cases, we are no longer talking about the natural design of mankind; rather, we are talking about physically disabling anomalies: consequences of Original Sin.)

Finally, as an indication of how it can reasonably deduced that pleasure is the secondary function and reproduction the primary function, sensual pleasure is subjective (pleasurable relative only to the brain's interpretation of the signals relayed to it by the nervous system [consider, for example, those creatures which reproduce without this highly receptive and interpretive central nervous system]); the central nervous system could just as easily interpret these signals as pain if it interpreted any signal at all. In this case, pleasure only exists because the brain makes (interprets) it so. It is fleeting, momentary, and gone within moments after the orgasm. In this way, we can see that pleasure and pain are completely conditional, relative, and, in a sense, "made up" by the brain. They are useful only in subjecting our wills to God's: pleasure--through the proper use of it; pain--through resigned acceptance of it. The primary function of the generative faculties, however, is objective; it is not relative to sensual interpretation but instead to an act of God's will, which is objective, in the creation of an immortal soul. In all life forms, the complementary execution of the generative faculties induces a procreative biological process that will culminate in the development of offspring unless inhibited by some external factor. Furthermore, the pleasure derived from sexual intercourse by man is not shared by the entire creative order. In this case, the primary end of the generative faculty is not fleeting, momentary, or gone within moments after orgasm; on the contrary, it isn’t until orgasm that the biological process begins. The consequences are the cooperation with God in the creation of a new soul-infused body. This is a far more significant end of the reproductive organs than relative, momentary pleasure.

In examining the consistency of this evaluation with other life-maintaining processes, we find that the reproductive system is not alone in this function-degree relationship. In fact, most life-sustaining biological processes share this same complementary nature. For example, the primary function of food consumption is sustaining life while the secondary function is the pleasure of eating, which is provided by the release of endorphins. Similarly, the primary function of water consumption is sustaining life while the secondary function is the satisfaction derived from quenching one’s thirst. However, it can hardly be logically deduced that the sustenance of the body merely assists the pleasure of eating and drinking; rather, we can see that the purpose of the secondary functions of eating and drinking is to encourage the fulfillment of the primary function: to sustain life and health.

The abuse of these functions varies according to the degree to which it offends God. Overeating for the sake of the enjoyment of eating is an abuse via a contravention of God's will. Abusing the generative faculties for the sake of pleasure aggravates this contravention because it an abuse of a supernatural power--that of cooperating with the will of God in the creation of new soul--enjoyed by a species of the created order which is distinguished by an infinitely superior hierarchy of faculties. These superior faculties require great responsibility.

The abuse of any of these functions is sinful and all for the same reason: disordering their natural ends. Suppose we use an analogy to make this more concrete. Perhaps we might think of it like a father who gives to his son $50,000 to use to go to school so that he can get a degree that will place him into a very good career and thus providing for a successful future. Suppose, then, that the son uses that money to buy a newer, prettier car than the reliable one he already has, instead of paying for school. By doing this, the son would be taking out a loan from the father that the father would be willing to give him, but since he has squandered it, if the father still desires that the son establish himself in a certain career, he has to give the son more money to use it for the purpose for which it was supposed to be used. This money the father gives freely to be used according to its purpose and his will; the wasted money that was separated from its specific purpose is now a debt that the son must pay the father.

We must consider that the money given to the son does not guarantee a good college education, a better job, or a greater salary down the road; there are all sorts of factors outside of the immediate control of the son that could interfere with his establishment in a good career. But to purposely use the money outside of the reason it was given is a willful contravention of the purpose that the loan was given.

Every time we abuse the generative faculties, we accrue more debt and are forced to take out more loans (by way of analogy) from our Father. We are going to have to pay all of that money back, whether it is now or in the next life: purgatory. That is one of the reasons why sexual intercourse used outside of the purpose for which it was given is such an abominable act: it literally mocks (and takes advantage of) the free gift of God. Used appropriately, however, it is a very sacred power that most certainly glorifies God and is a means of obtaining our eternal reward by cooperating with His Holy Will.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)