Is there Crypto-Orthodoxy among some Eastern Catholics?
#21
(04-01-2011, 01:02 PM)Virgil the Roman Wrote:
(04-01-2011, 12:41 PM)St. Drogo Wrote: I concur. What annoys me most is how many Eastern Catholics flaunt married priests as if it were something desirable as opposed to something merely tolerated.d

There is nothing wrong with married priests.  Many Latins denigrate it and try to force Byzantines in America to have celibate priests. Against the particular and wholly legitimate tradition of Eastern Catholic Church  admitting married men to their clergy's ranks. 

In the US the intransigent Bishop Ireland caused a schism by Fr Alexis Toth and several hundred thousand fellow Eastern Catholics to defect to the Eastern Schismatic churches. All because he and a select few of his compatriots were jealous of the married clerics and said also that having married Eastern Catholic clerics would "confuse" the lay-faithful.  Bah!

I am sorry, but I cannot stand whenever some folks rail against certain aspects of the Eastern rites' as if it is okay. I certainly don't support or applaud this crypto-Eastern Schismatic tendencies amongst many Eastern Catholics nowadays, either. (I've noticed it on the online forums; not so much in real life, though.)  It is sad times we live in: Times of Mass-Apostasy. 

The Easterners recognize the superiority of celibacy in the distinction between white and black clergy, the higher esteem they have for monastics, and in the practice of elevating celibate monastics to the episcopacy.  When the conversation is with them and Roman Catholics, they cease to accept the conclusions which come from their own praxis.

Bishop Ireland does appear to have been bigoted against the Easterners if you look at the full story.  
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#22
(04-01-2011, 04:23 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: Bishop Ireland does appear to have been bigoted against the Easterners if you look at the full story.  

No. If he was a normal Irish Bishop of his time, he was just bigoted against all non-Irishmen. My grandfather, a German Catholic, had the misfortune to be born on St Patrick's Day in an Irish town in Iowa. He left the Church at the earliest opportunity because of the abuse he received at the hands of the Irish nuns. If an Irish child vomited, he got to clean it up because he was German!

Once the Irish began to be accepted, they wanted no competition whether it be Slav, German, Italian, etc.
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#23
(04-01-2011, 04:31 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(04-01-2011, 04:23 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: Bishop Ireland does appear to have been bigoted against the Easterners if you look at the full story.  

No. If he was a normal Irish Bishop of his time, he was just bigoted against all non-Irishmen. My grandfather, a German Catholic, had the misfortune to be born on St Patrick's Day in an Irish town in Iowa. He left the Church at the earliest opportunity because of the abuse he received at the hands of the Irish nuns. If an Irish child vomited, he got to clean it up because he was German!

Once the Irish began to be accepted, they wanted no competition whether it be Slav, German, Italian, etc.

Sounds like Walty!  hahah
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#24
Denial of the Holy Spirit's procession from both Father and Son, of papal primacy of jurisdiction, and of papal infallibility by Eastern "Catholics" is one of the things that annoys me most. If you don't want to adhere to the dogmas of the Catholic Church, then please don't pretend to be Catholic.
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#25
(04-01-2011, 04:48 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: Denial of the Holy Spirit's procession from both Father and Son, of papal primacy of jurisdiction, and of papal infallibility by Eastern "Catholics" is one of the things that annoys me most. If you don't want to adhere to the dogmas of the Catholic Church, then please don't pretend to be Catholic.

I agree, but then I'm an Eastern Catholic.
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#26
I think the reason why there are so many crypto-Orthodox among Eastern Catholics is that it can be very disheartening to see what Eastern Orthodoxy has in comparison to many Eastern Catholic parishes, which tend to still be Eastern-Latin hybrids in many cases.  That doesn't justify schism in any way, of course, but it explains why crypto-Orthodoxy can be so prevalent.  In my parish, there isn't much of an issue with it, because liturgically we are identical to the Orthodox.  If it weren't for the comemoration of the Pope, you'd be hard pressed to distinguish us from the Orthodox.

Another thing that makes Eastern Catholics susceptible to crypto-Orthodoxy is the fact that in praxis the Orthodox are still doing things that were being done by both Easterners and Latins even up until a hundred and fifty years ago.  For example, the manner by which a bishop is elected.  I just recently heard this on an Orthodox forum that up until vatican 1, latin bishops were elected by the bishops of the dioceses around them.  Whether this is true or not, I don't know, anyone more educated in history than I can tell me if this is accurate.  Or the document unam sanctam.  Apparently, the pope in that document made some pretty hefty claims of papal prerogatives that are clearly rediculous in light of the papacy of the first millenium.  Perhaps there was historical context that made it more realistic then.  The problem is that the Orthodox dso a really good job of combining accurate history with anti-Roman propaganda that sounds pretty compelling to those that don't have a thoroughly grounded historical education.

Finally, I think why so many crypto-Orthodox don't actually become full fledged Orthodox is that when they actually sit down and think about it, they know the Catholic Church is the true Church.  Most Eastern Catholics go through recurring periods of romanticizing Orthodoxy, much the same way many traditional Latins romanticize monarchy.  Whenever that happens to me, I sit down and list out the reasons that I am hesistant of becoming Orthodox, and just in doing that, before I am even finished I have reconvinced myself that I made the right choice by remaining Catholic.  There are things that the Pope and the Latin Church have done that were completely unneccesary.  There are things the Pope has done that were really bad and shouldn't have been done, but ultimately he had the authority to do them.  None of it, though, justifies schism, and that's why the crypto-Orthodox rarely actually cross the Bosporus.
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#27
(04-01-2011, 07:02 PM)Melkite Wrote: None of it, though, justifies schism, and that's why the crypto-Orthodox rarely actually cross the Bosporus.

Cross the Bosphorus to Istanbul?
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#28
(04-01-2011, 04:48 PM)Resurrexi Wrote: Denial of the Holy Spirit's procession from both Father and Son,[b]of papal primacy of jurisdiction[b]

Many Easterners have changed their tune on this, albeit sublety. They no longer argue about Papal primacy, but Papal Supremacy. Regardless, they're still wrong.
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#29
eh, the phenomenon is largely American and largely on the Internet (though I am surprised to see what the Romanian brother had to say - but in USA Romanian Catholic Church is sort of wacky)... in person I have not experienced it as described - though I have experienced (even from myself) disdain for the Latin Church but not because of "Cryptic Orthododoxy". Like what Melkite said my parish is also liturgically identical with the Eastern Orthodox and maybe that's why I have never experienced "Cryptic Orthodoxy". I also think Latins think some things which are rightfully ours by tradition (married clergy and not reciting filioque) to be examples of our "unCatholicness"   

Actually on the flip side we have lost members to the Latin Church because we were/are too "Orthodox", off hand I can't think of anyone leaving us for the Eastern Orthodox

Historically Russophilia, notably early 20th century in the Carpathian province of Austria Hungary (now Zarcarpatia Oblast in Ukraine) caused a couple schisms (implanted with Russian agents whom took advantage of anti-Hungarian disdain) - Russian Church agents also infiltrated the early Greek Catholics in America and taking advantage of Bishop Ireland et al caused a similar schism to the Russian Orthodox to create what would become today the "Orthodox Church in America", which is the second largest Eastern Orthodox group in America, the Greeks being first.   

As far as Crypto-Orthodoxy in Byzantine clergy, I think those who were serious about it became Eastern Orthodox years ago.
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#30
(04-02-2011, 08:04 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(04-01-2011, 07:02 PM)Melkite Wrote: None of it, though, justifies schism, and that's why the crypto-Orthodox rarely actually cross the Bosporus.

Cross the Bosphorus to Istanbul?

Yeah.  I've heard it used several times to mean conversion to Orthodoxy, like crossing the Tiber is used to mean conversion to Catholicism.
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