Validity of sede Bishops
#11
(04-02-2011, 02:09 PM)NorthernTrad Wrote: Another answer is that "yes" the Thuc consecrations are valid. 

I think the accurate answer is that some of them are valid, maybe all.  And even if all the Abp. Thuc ones are, those farther down the lineage are not so clear.
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#12
The issue of Thuc consecrations have come up so many times, it's amazing to see so much ignorant, knee-jerk antagonism against them. It's like the EWTN crowd who, on cue, say, "Oh those Latin Mass people, they're all schismatics."

For the most part, the Thuc line is VALID.
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#13
  Christus Imperat,

    I would just like to point out to you that a new, extensive study(perhaps the most done yet) just came out in January.  It is called an "An Open Letter to Bishop Clarence Kelly..." and can be found at  http://www.thucbishops.com  It can be viewed online or downloaded for free.  It is just over 100 pages.  A traditional Catholic  named Mario Derkson put it together with copious footnotes, quotes, etc from pre-VII sources.  He walks one through why the Thuc consecrations, in particular the consecrations of Des Laurier, Carmona, and Zamora have to be presumed and accepted as valid.  If one is serious and wants to get to the truth, and not just casaully say there is no way to know or it doesn't really matter, should look into this.  I have to go right now.  PM me if you would care to talk/ask for more info. 

  Joe
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#14
(04-02-2011, 09:43 PM)joe17 Wrote:   Christus Imperat,

    I would just like to point out to you that a new, extensive study(perhaps the most done yet) just came out in January.  It is called an "An Open Letter to Bishop Clarence Kelly..." and can be found at   http://www.thucbishops.com  It can be viewed online or downloaded for free.  It is just over 100 pages.  A traditional Catholic  named Mario Derkson put it together with copious footnotes, quotes, etc from pre-VII sources.  He walks one through why the Thuc consecrations, in particular the consecrations of Des Laurier, Carmona, and Zamora have to be presumed and accepted as valid.  If one is serious and wants to get to the truth, and not just casaully say there is no way to know or it doesn't really matter, should look into this.  I have to go right now.  PM me if you would care to talk/ask for more info. 

  Joe

I'll look into the matter.

I don't have a personal horse in this race, as far as I'm aware, so I think I'm open to whatever someone convinces me is fact (I'm also open to remaining completely undecided).
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#15
I am suspicious that Thuc, at the end of his life, might have not had the mental capacity to perform ordinations.

Does mental capacity have any impact on intent, form or matter?
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#16
(04-02-2011, 10:04 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: I am suspicious that Thuc, at the end of his life, might have not had the mental capacity to perform ordinations.

Does mental capacity have any impact on intent, form or matter?

Were you personally acquainted with Abp. Thuc?
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#17
As to mental capacity,  that is a fair question.  Mental incapacity must be proven.  It cannot be presumed.  There is evidence in the study that demonstrates that Bishop Thuc had his faculties at the time.  Many people before and after the consecrations saw him.  Some(Fr Francis Miller, O.F.M., priest of Christ the King Chapel, Lafayette, LA  http://www.cajuncatholic.com )lived with him for over a year in Rochester, NY and brought him to appointments, served his Mass, etc, a year after the concsecrations.  
  Again, look at the study.  Call up Fr Francis to hear about him from someone that actually knew him, not just heard about him, even though there is enough evidence that is factual that enables one to recognise the validity of the consecrations in question.  I hope this helps.

 Joe
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#18
(04-02-2011, 10:28 PM)OldMan Wrote:
(04-02-2011, 10:04 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: I am suspicious that Thuc, at the end of his life, might have not had the mental capacity to perform ordinations.

Does mental capacity have any impact on intent, form or matter?

Were you personally acquainted with Abp. Thuc?

I'm guessing the whole notion of mental incapacity would also be very different in Canon Law than in post-Freudian psychology.  There would have to be demonstrable defect in intent. 

How many Thuc line Bishops are there in the US/North America and what are the other lines of Bishops?  I read somewhere that a Bishop in Brazil consecrated some of them (or began another line).
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#19
(04-02-2011, 10:37 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote:
(04-02-2011, 10:28 PM)OldMan Wrote:
(04-02-2011, 10:04 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: I am suspicious that Thuc, at the end of his life, might have not had the mental capacity to perform ordinations.

Does mental capacity have any impact on intent, form or matter?

Were you personally acquainted with Abp. Thuc?

I'm guessing the whole notion of mental incapacity would also be very different in Canon Law than in post-Freudian psychology.  There would have to be demonstrable defect in intent. 

How many Thuc line Bishops are there in the US/North America and what are the other lines of Bishops?  I read somewhere that a Bishop in Brazil consecrated some of them (or began another line).

Actually, just found some articles on the topic, so asked and answered.
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#20
(04-02-2011, 02:50 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(04-02-2011, 02:09 PM)NorthernTrad Wrote: Another answer is that "yes" the Thuc consecrations are valid.  This has been studied over and over again.  In fact, they should be considered more valid than any of Modernist bishops that purport to have some kind of authority in the local diocese.  It is actually the Modernists that need to submit to the Church and actually accept the Catholic faith before they can even be considered to have any authority.

How many of these modernists are "ordaining" female pop singers?

The Church is guided by the Holy Ghost, not by temporal concerns.

The Church is indeed guided by the Holy Ghost, that's why we have these great bishops who have helped to preserve the Catholic Faith in the face of such crisis.  But really, you made me do it...
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