foreplay in the sexual act
#21
(04-13-2011, 09:03 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Wait so sodomy between two guys cries to heaven for vengeance but not between a woman and a man?  Can I get some details on that?  Why would there be a difference, its an abuse of the sexual faculties and naturally disordered, why should it matter if its between a man and a man or a woman and a man?

Imperfect sodomy that is not done to completion does not because it still results in the pro-creative act.  The reason sodomy cries out for vengeance is it destroys the unity of husband and wife, family, etc. in the temporal realm because it reduces sex to being separate from those things.

I suspect that if the OT were written today, birth control would cry out for vengeance as well, for the same reasons.  Maybe even louder.

Remember vengeance has nothing to do with the gravity of the sin in and of itself.  It is asking for Divine Intervention to stop or reduce the occurrence of that sin in the temporal realm.
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#22
(04-13-2011, 09:37 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(04-13-2011, 09:29 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: Yeah Melkite I don't really see how this sort of discussion can end well, if this is your attitude, dude

It never ends well when one side can't be honest about their subjectivity.  Of course this issue is subjective for me too, but at least I don't pretend I'm not being partially subjective.

It doesn't end well when theological teaching is distorted with rhetoric on either side, no.  Let's keep the subjectivity out of it and give the Church's teaching and explanation in an objective manner.
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#23
(04-13-2011, 09:15 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(04-13-2011, 09:03 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Wait so sodomy between two guys cries to heaven for vengeance but not between a woman and a man? 
Do you understand what "cries out to heaven" means and why it is stated in such a way?

Too many times people get involved in discussions when they are unfamiliar with the basics of it.

Quote: Can I get some details on that?  Why would there be a difference, its an abuse of the sexual faculties and naturally disordered, why should it matter if its between a man and a man or a woman and a man?
Sure, it is stated in scripture: http://www.fisheaters.com/lists.html#10

Any discussion about "why" is an attempt to determine why scripture gives them as such.

Yes, the four sins crying to heaven for vengeance- willful murder, sodomy, defrauding labrorers of their wages and oppression of the poor.  I had always assumed sodomy to refer to anal sex of any kind.  Considering it just with men then two woman cannot be guilty of sodomy.  Is that correct?

I guess what I'm wondering is if there's anything further (analytically) on this subject.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#24
(04-13-2011, 09:03 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Wait so sodomy between two guys cries to heaven for vengeance but not between a woman and a man?  Can I get some details on that?  Why would there be a difference, its an abuse of the sexual faculties and naturally disordered, why should it matter if its between a man and a man or a woman and a man?

(04-13-2011, 08:08 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(04-13-2011, 06:44 PM)Melkite Wrote: Nah, it only cries out to heaven if two men do it, because the idea of a woman and a man doing it isn't disgusting to most Catholics.

The difference, of course, is that the latter (in your post) doesn't necessarily exclude imperfect sodomy, whereby the reproductive function of the generative faculty can still be accomplished insofar as the completion of the generative faculty is conducive to reproduction. However, the former (in your post) can only be perfect sodomy, whereby the reproductive function of the generative faculties is inevitably frustrated and has no possibility of success.

It is not the intrinsic idea of sodomy that Catholics find so disgusting per se. The sin against nature accomplished by homosexual sodomy via perfect sodomy is what is so disgusting to Catholics.
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#25
Oh, I see Quis already answered the question, and quite well. Hopefully you don't find the redundancy insulting or offensive.
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#26
Maybe I'm alone in finding both equally disgusting in that they serve to satisfy carnal urges and nothing else.  :shrug:
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#27
I don't really see what the point is.  It seems like you're asking for trouble (starting something that enjoyable, but you shouldn't finish;  are you kidding me).  But, you know, technically....  Nowadays though, I mean seriously  :pazzo:

It's like contraception.  If it's o.k. to use condoms, then you know, the next step is to say or at least think, that it is o.k. to commit adultery, because no child will be produced and, historically speaking, that is exactly what happened. 

Back to the marital bond, how does humiliation enhance that bond?

Then there's the issue of respect.  How does doing that to your wife, enhance her respect for your authority?  How does her doing it to you, enhance your respect for her, as the weaker vessel?  I can't see it myself.

But you know, that's what I like about Authoritarian institutions:  I don't have to agree;  I just have to obey.  In a Democracy you have to worry about all that stupid consensus stuff. 



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#28
(04-13-2011, 08:38 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(04-13-2011, 08:16 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: I would say that oral sex would never be permissible, as it is not for the purpose of procreation.

Not everything has to be pro-creative as long as the conclusion of the act is open to pro-creation.  By your reckoning, sex between sterile people, etc., would never be permissible since they cannot procreate even in a natural ordered act.  That's not the case.  The secondary purpose of marital relations, and also marriage, is a physical expression of love between man and wife.  That suffices to make it licit as long as it remains open to pro-creation.

Go back to SPL's post and read the cites from a moral theology text:

Quote:The intrinsic reason for this (I Cor. vii, 3) is that the conjugal act is not only necessary for the propagation of the human race but also for the fostering of married love.  As often as one of these purposes is desired, the conjugal act is lawful, provided that no other ills or inconveniences ensue.  Consequently the partners in marriage are not obliged to exercise sexual intercourse simply for the sake of procreation.

What is not allowed, ever, is onanism - spilling the seed outside the vagina; proximate danger of pollution (risk spilling the seed) means you shouldn't do anything that has a high risk of that happening even by accident.  If it's begun somewhere else, it needs to finish up in a pro-creative manner.

Why does it matter whether the seed is sprinkled on the floor (i.e. masturbation) or in a sterile vagina? In either case it is not for procreation, and a waste of seed that could be avoided. For example, a couple who has sex while the woman is pregnant would mean fertility is impossible at that time.
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#29
(04-13-2011, 09:43 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Maybe I'm alone in finding both equally disgusting in that they serve to satisfy carnal urges and nothing else.   :shrug:

They don't. Intercourse between a male and a female that includes sodomy as a means of progressive stimulation toward vaginal completion has the end of procreation in sight. The alternative does not.
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#30
(04-13-2011, 09:38 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote:
(04-13-2011, 09:03 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Wait so sodomy between two guys cries to heaven for vengeance but not between a woman and a man?  Can I get some details on that?  Why would there be a difference, its an abuse of the sexual faculties and naturally disordered, why should it matter if its between a man and a man or a woman and a man?

Imperfect sodomy that is not done to completion does not because it still results in the pro-creative act.  The reason sodomy cries out for vengeance is it destroys the unity of husband and wife, family, etc. in the temporal realm because it reduces sex to being separate from those things.

I suspect that if the OT were written today, birth control would cry out for vengeance as well, for the same reasons.  Maybe even louder.

Remember vengeance has nothing to do with the gravity of the sin in and of itself.  It is asking for Divine Intervention to stop or reduce the occurrence of that sin in the temporal realm.

I'm still confused.  imperfect sodomy is anal sex between a man and a woman and perfect sodomy is between two men?  And you say the difference is that the former still results in the procreative act while the latter has no chance.  Maybe I slept through health class but I didn't think a person could get pregnant through anal sex....?

More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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