Why Do Catholics Want Pope JP-2 Canonized a Saint?
#21
Haha, please no!  :fish: Seriously though, thanks for the compliment (and the one in the other thread).  You're too kind :-[ 
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#22
"Why Do Catholics Want Pope JP-2 Canonized a Saint?"

We do not want that to occur.
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#23
(04-19-2011, 02:39 PM)Dusty_Bottoms Wrote: I think I'm going to start a SaintSebastian fan club.  He seemingly never fails to be articulate, informative, reasonable, and charitable.

Yes. 
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#24
SouthpawLink wrote in part concerning my previous post which says in part:

“The point is that it is a contradiction of terms for a ‘heretic’ to even want to have ‘the intention of doing what the [Catholic] Church does’”!

Quote: But isn't that exactly what Trent said was possible?  Moreover, heretics do not necessarily oppose all Catholic doctrines; some do believe that baptism remits sins. 


Thank you for your question.

The answer is, as I understand it, that in practical, and the clergy might want to say "Pastoral", terms, even though Trent says non-Catholics can validly baptize IF they do what is necessary for validity, the problem is that a heretic, by definition, is not a member of the Mystical Body of Christ which is the Catholic Church because the Constitution of the Catholic Church, which Christ instituted, does not permit anyone to freely choose what they would and would not believe .  There is no such thing as “cafeteria Catholicity”, in other words. 

This means the heretic, as long as he is a heretic, puts a blockage between the requirements of the Catholic Church for validity and himself as being a non-Catholic insofar as the heretic has freely chosen one or more heresies as one Holy Catholic Bishop says:

“Therefore, heresy is so-called from the Greek word meaning “choice”, by which each chooses according to his own will what he pleases to teach or believe.  BUT WE ARE NOT PERMITTED TO BELIEVE WHATEVER WE CHOOSE, NOR TO CHOOSE WHATEVER SOMEONE ELSE HAS BELIEVED.  We have the Apostles of God as authorities, who did not themselves of their own will choose what they would believe, but faithfully transmitted to the nations the teaching received from Christ.  So, even if an Angel from Heaven should preach otherwise, he shall be called anathema”  (Saint Isidore of Seville [b. Cartagena, Spain 560 A.D. - d. Seville, Spain, 636 A.D.], Bishop of Seville, Doctor of the Catholic Church, ETYMOLOGIES, 8, 3; emphasis added).

What is “anathema” which heretics incur?

Hopefully, Pope Felix I clarified this where he wrote: “Share the lot of those whom you freely embrace and not the honor and communion of the Catholic Church.  Likewise, realize that you are separated from the number of the Faithful; that you receive the name of an enemy of the Christian religion; that you are condemned by the judgment of the Holy Ghost and apostolic authority; and that you are never released from the bonds of this anathema” (Felix I, Epistle 6.)

Putting this into context, then, on the one hand you have Bishop Saint Isidore of Seville teaching not only that “we are not permitted to believe whatever we choose, nor to choose whatever someone else has believed”, but also that “even if an Angel from Heaven should preach otherwise, he shall be called anathema”, and on the other hand you have Pope Felix I teaching that those who freely choose what they will and will not believe from among the Dogmatic Doctrines of the Catholic Church (i.e. heretics) “are separated from the number of the Faithful” (i.e. are no longer members of the Catholic Church).  The Pope even says that they “receive the name of an enemy of the Christian religion” and that they “are condemned by the judgment of the Holy Ghost and apostolic authority”, etc.

The point in all of this seems to be that even though some heretics might believe some of the Dogmatic Doctrines of the Catholic Church, e.g. on Baptism, the problem is because they are “anathema”, because they “are separated from the number of the Faithful” because they belong to a different religion which is outside of the Catholic Church, they have no real Sacramental power to validly Administer any Sacrament because they have only the power to do what their “church” does - not the Catholic Church!

I happen to know from personal experience that this is true!  It is a sad story of a personal friend of mine for many, many years, who was a very good, devout, intelligent Catholic Priest, who ended up (because he did not want to loose his “pension”???) going along with the “flow” of the “changes” which swept him into what has become an anti-Catholic "church", the “Vatican 2 church” (Lex Ordandi, Lex Credendi - the Law of Praying is the Law of Believing).

I had been going to Confession to him for quite some time.  Why?  Because he had been validly Ordained a Catholic Priest many years before Synod Vatican 2 and personally hated the changes and actually also hated his own bishop!

Also, this good, honest, Catholic Priest even used the correct, valid, pre-Vatican 2 “Rituale Romanum”.

At the time, I thought I was receiving the valid Sacrament of Penance because everything was there - all requirements for liciety and validity were present!

Correction: one requirement was missing!  This poor Priest was no longer a member of the Catholic Church, but of the “Vatican 2 church”!  But I ignored this fact - perhaps it was wishful thinking that he could validly administer the Sacrament of Penance to me?

Then one day, a Catholic Priest who had been validly Ordained in the Catacombs by a validly Consecrated Catholic Bishop, came across my path.  Bottom line, I ended up going to Confession to him.  He did everything exactly the same way that my good Priest friend had done it since his own Ordination as a Priest many years before! 

The difference?  This Catacombs Priest was a member of the Catholic Church and my good Priest-friend was a de facto member of the “Vatican 2 church”.

Immediately after receiving Absolution (I had already said the prayer he gave me for my penance), I felt totally different!  I could actually “feel” my Soul be totally “healed” again!!  Because this was a Supernatural event, human words do not accurately describe this event!

I remember I was in a state of shock!  I immediately realized that all that time I had gone to Confession to my good Priest-friend was worthless because he was no longer a member of the Catholic Church!  Instead he truly was “separated from the number of the Faithful” and because of this bad choice he made, he was now “anathema” and was unable to use his Sacramental Powers as a Priest to administer any Sacrament, including Penance! 

I suspect that many people will want to doubt this testimony, debunk it, ridicule it, and condemn it!  I understand.  IF it had not happened to me, personally, I probably would also want to doubt it myself!  But I know it is true because it did happen to me!  Ever since then, I have never gone to any “masses” or received any “sacraments” from those in the “Vatican 2 church” or to any clergy "ordained" in the new rite or by bishops who are in the "Vatican 2 church"!

What obviously had happened was that the good Priest friend of mine had put up a blockage - a major defect of intention!  Now I can understand why, as sad as it is, this Priest had automatically become “separated from the number of the Faithful” and by so-doing also became “anathema” and had thereby erected a huge blockage so that it was impossible for him to intend to do what Christ and the Catholic Church does.  Instead, he was “condemned” to have only the intention to do what his false church does, the anti-Catholic “Vatican 2 church”! 

I hope this helps to begin to explain why  “it is a contradiction of terms for a ‘heretic’ to even want to have ‘the intention of doing what the [Catholic] Church does’!”? 

But, even those who really do want to have it, like my good Priest-friend, are unable to have it because the ontological essence (what a thing is; its being) and the metaphysical essence (what the ontological essence does) of the “mass” and “sacraments” in all other “churches” (Protestant; Vatican 2; etc.) are not only different, but are also defective and invalid as well (Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi).

A Catholic Catholic
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#25
αἵρεσις
In my greek dictionnary means "answer"
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#26
Immediately after receiving Absolution (I had already said the prayer he gave me for my penance), I felt totally different!  I could actually “feel” my Soul be totally “healed” again!! 

Beware about your "feelings"
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#27
In regard to my statement: “Immediately after receiving Absolution (I had already said the prayer he gave me for my penance), I felt totally different!  I could actually ‘feel’ my Soul be totally ‘healed’ again!!”:

maso writes:

“Beware about your ‘feelings’”.

Good point!  Actually, in a general context, I have said the same thing to people who have mentioned their “feelings”!  But not in a Spiritual context, whether it be Ascetical or Mystical.  Why not?

In reading various works of Catholic Theology, it soon becomes self-evident that Catholic Theologians are wont to make what are called “distinctions”.

While some people might consider “distinctions” an exercise in futility (because all they want, or all they care about, is the “bottom line”), or an attempt to split one hair into a number of individuals strands, insofar as the science of theology is concerned, exactness helps one to avoid falling into heresies which are the product of deliberate double-talk, vagueness, amphiboly (ambiguous terminology), not to mention other fallacies. 

Some of these other fallacies are called “Extradictional Material Fallacies”, e.g. Petitio Principii: Begging the Question;  Ignoratio Elenchi: Irrelevant Conclusion, a.k.a. Missing the Point, a.k.a. Ignoring the Issue;  Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam: Argument to Ignorance; Argumentum Ad Verecundiam:  Argument to Authority, etc., plus the “Fallacy of Diction” known as “equivocation” (Aristotle’s first of six Fallacies of Diction).

Case in point has to do with the above “feelings”.

The Catholic Religion is a Supernatural Religion, unlike the various natural religions of paganism.  This means that because it is Supernatural, both in terms of its ontological essence (its being) and its metaphysical essence (that which the ontological essence does; the acts it performs), one does find lots of Mysteries which are not fully understood in this life and which only will actually be understood in the eternal contemplation of God and His Truths in Heaven.

One of the many mysteries of this Supernatural Religion is the immortal human Soul which the good God infuses into a human being at the moment of conception.

For example, all people can actually prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that they do, in fact, have an immortal Soul!  How?  By the application of the theological axiom: the Soul “perceives” itself in act.

If this concept is too abstruse for most people, please consider how the human mind “perceives” or “feels” its mortal human body in act: the mind is aware of itself when it thinks; also, the human mind is aware of the physical sensation of “feeling” its arms and hands and legs and feet when they move, etc.  The physical eyes send nerve impulses to the human brain so that the mind is able to “see” itself - its arms, hands, torso, legs, feet, etc.

The same is true with the immortal human Soul: the intellect (one of the powers of the Soul) is aware of itself when it acts; for example, when it functions by thinking; also, the intellect is aware of when and what the Soul “perceives” or “feels” when it acts; when it does something. 

So also, the intellect is, in a sense, likewise able to “see” its own Soul and to “perceive” or “feel” when its Soul acts in one way or another.  The very act of this “perception” or “feeling” by the Soul proves to the power of the Soul - the intellect - that it exists because the very act of the intellect itself is sufficient proof that it is in the state of existence. In other words, IF the intellect did not exist, the intellect could not do any of the above things for this very reason!

By the same token, because the Soul can “perceive” itself, a.k.a. can “feel” itself, this means that it can be possible for a Soul to also “perceive”, or otherwise “feel”, if it has any sin(s) on its Soul, especially IF the intellect has attained the knowledge of the Truths of Mystical Theology so that it is capable of understanding the difference between its “perception” or “feeling” of Sanctifying Grace on its Soul and its “perception” or “feeling” of sin(s) on its Soul.  This is obviously a very highly refined “distinction” which the intellect must make (i.e. between Sanctifying Grace and sin)  - but it is not impossible by any means!

Granted, in this life, not every immortal human Soul has attained, or will attain, the Supernatural level required to make such a very highly refined “distinction” which the intellect must make (i.e. between Sanctifying Grace and sin).  Nevertheless, this is not only possible, but, it seems that some Catholic authors of Mystical Theology impute this as part of what they classify as “the normal way of Sanctity”. 

But this does NOT mean that any person whose intellect has this ability to make such a very highly refined “distinction” which the intellect is able to make between Sanctifying Grace and sin is somehow a saint!!!  NO!

Therefore, please do NOT think just because I was able to do this (it happened only ONE time, by the way, but that ONE time was sufficient for me to make the necessary judgements and decisions I needed to make at that particular time) ONE time, that somehow this puts me into the category of a “saint”!  NO!  I make no claim(s) whatsoever in this regard!!!  Let this be very clearly understood!  I am a sinner.  I am NOT a “saint” by any means in any way!!!  I am merely explaining why my Soul was able to “feel”, i.e. “perceive” a certain Truth; this is all: nothing more; nothing less.

It is understandable how those who have not had such a personal experience would doubt such a fact; but this does not mean that it is not True and is non-existent.  On the contrary, it simply means that there are many, many Mysteries in the Supernatural Religion of Catholicism which most people will only know exist after they arrive in Heaven and begin their contemplation of God and His many Mysteries!

After all, God the Holy Ghost teaches all of us, through the pen of Saint Paul:  “O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God!  How incomprehensible are His judgments, and how unsearchable His ways!  For who hath known the mind of the Lord?  Or who hath been His counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).

Thanks be to God!

A Catholic Catholic
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#28
(04-19-2011, 02:39 PM)Dusty_Bottoms Wrote: I think I'm going to start a SaintSebastian fan club.  He seemingly never fails to be articulate, informative, reasonable, and charitable.

I don't have strong feelings either way about the canonization, but this I am enthusiastic about. I have noticed the same things about SaintSebastian's posts.
Unfortunately my husband read this thread before SS contributed to it.  My husband is a good man and a good Catholic but he is not a trad.  He often attends the TLM with me, but it does not attract him.  But his main problem with traditional Catholicism is that he keeps on being scandalized by trads.  He was starting to feel more positively towards tradition and so he checked out FE.  He came to this thread and went back to being negative. 
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#29
Quote:Unfortunately my husband read this thread before SS contributed to it.  My husband is a good man and a good Catholic but he is not a trad.  He often attends the TLM with me, but it does not attract him.  But his main problem with traditional Catholicism is that he keeps on being scandalized by trads.  He was starting to feel more positively towards tradition and so he checked out FE.  He came to this thread and went back to being negative. 

Comment:

It can be very, very scary to learn the Truth about a certain subject for the very first time, most especially when a person has never had an opportunity to really humbly and prayerfully study that subject through no fault of their own.  Yet it is the Truth which sets people free: “And you shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free” (John 8:32).

This fact sometimes gives Catholic Traditionalists the false “label” of “scandalizing” people who have never had an opportunity to really humbly and prayerfully and patiently learn the beautiful Truths of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church perfectly instituted by Jesus Christ so that, just as many of the Disciples of Christ left Him, so also do many today not want to have anything to do with Catholic Traditionalists: “After this many of His disciples went back; and walked no more with Him” (John 6:67).  (Perhaps humbly praying to God the Holy Ghost would help them to accept the Truth?)

But even Christ Himself scandalized people with the Truth!! 

For example, remember how the Jews were horribly scandalized at Christ when He taught them about the Sacrament of the Most Holy Eucharist: “Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.... Many therefore of His disciples, hearing it, said:  This saying is hard, and who can hear it? But Jesus, knowing in Himself, that His disciples murmured at this, said to them:  Doth this SCANDALIZE you?” (John 6:54, 61-62).

Even a Holy and Infallible Roman Catholic Pope realized that there would be times when people would take scandal at the Truth, for whatever reason(s) and sometimes even hate those who tell the Truth, just as the Jews hated Christ to the point of demanding His crucifixion. 

Nevertheless, “If people are SCANDALIZED at the Truth, it is better to allow the birth of SCANDAL, than to abandon the Truth”. (Infallible Roman Catholic Pope Saint Gregory I, the Great, Homily on Ezechiel, 7; cited by Saint Thomas Aquinas, O.P., “Summa Theologica”, Part II-II, Question 43, Article 7) just as Christ Himself did not abandon the Truth.

Instead, Christ teaches that it is only by the Grace of God that one can really come to He Who is “the way, and the Truth, and the life” (John 14:6): “And He said:  Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to Me, unless it [i.e. Grace] be given him by My Father. After this many of His disciples went back; and walked no more with Him.  Then Jesus said to the twelve:  Will you also go away?  And Simon Peter answered Him:  Lord, to whom shall we go?  Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:66-69).

Finally, it is good to remember that “God is Truth” (Saint Thomas Aquinas, O.P., “Summa Theologica” Part I, Question 16, Article 5; “Summa Theologica” Part II-II, Question 93, Article 2, Reply to Objection 2. “Summa Contra Gentiles” Book I, Chapter 60.)

I humbly pray for those who are scandalized by the Truth so that the good God will give them the Graces necessary not to be blinded by the brightness of the light of Truth, but instead to have a great increase in the love of God so that they may humbly, devoutly, and lovingly approach the one and only font of Truth, the God of Truth Who is Truth:  “I am the way, and the Truth, and the life”  (John 14:6) and thereby have the desire and the Graces necessary to humbly and prayerfully study so that they, too, will one day know and understand those Truths of which it seems today, at least, mostly only Catholic Traditionalists know and understand and apply?

A Catholic Catholic
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#30
(04-25-2011, 07:23 PM)A-Catholic-Catholic Wrote:
Quote:Unfortunately my husband read this thread before SS contributed to it.  My husband is a good man and a good Catholic but he is not a trad.  He often attends the TLM with me, but it does not attract him.  But his main problem with traditional Catholicism is that he keeps on being scandalized by trads.  He was starting to feel more positively towards tradition and so he checked out FE.  He came to this thread and went back to being negative. 

Comment:

It can be very, very scary to learn the Truth about a certain subject for the very first time, most especially when a person has never had an opportunity to really humbly and prayerfully study that subject through no fault of their own.  Yet it is the Truth which sets people free: “And you shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free” (John 8:32).

If you were writing the Truth, I would not have a problem with it.  You are not setting anyone free.  You (and others here) are creating an obstacle to my husband learning to appreciate traditional Catholicism.  He has learned to associate it with rejecting the authority of the Pope. 
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