Another EENS, please be patient...
#1
Well, here we go again. I just want to ask some questions:

Where in our magisterial documents do we find the doctrine of Baptism of desire that equates to any person of good will potentially being able to be saved?

How is this reconciled when no act of the ordinary magisterium can contradict the wording and phraseology of the extraordinary magisterium?

Is it possible to be saved without being born again?

How many ways are there to be born again?

Are Catechumens to be considered members of the faithful when they are dismissed before the prayers of the faithful and were never traditionally given a Christian burial?

Can non-members of the church be saved?

What are the teachings of the Popes oir councils on what makes a person a church member?

And let's narrow it down:

Let's forget the fathers and the theological writings of the saints: Where in the MAGISTERIUM is found anything that equates to what usually passes for BOD?
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#2
(05-01-2011, 05:24 PM)Gregory I Wrote: Let's forget the fathers and the theological writings of the saints: Where in the MAGISTERIUM is found anything that equates to what usually passes for BOD?

Let us forget the Fathers and the writings of the saints?

Aren't we Catholic?

The answer would be in answering "Is there anything which excludes baptism of desire from being believed?".

Baptism of Desire, as Catholic theology, does not replace Baptism. As such, it probably cannot be taught specifically as it would not serve a purpose.
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#3
Furthermore, you can not be saved without Faith in Jesus Christ.
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#4
I understand all that, but I have never seen a BOD supporter give accurate or authentic info directly from the magisterial osurce itself, which is our IMMEDIATE source of faith, Scripture and the Fathers being our remote sources of faith:

So then, where is the doctrine explicitly spelled out in the magisterial documents?

And can anyone become a member of the Church apart from Baptism?
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#5
(05-01-2011, 07:07 PM)Gregory I Wrote: And can anyone become a member of the Church apart from Baptism?

No, at least, not in any way which matters to us.

Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood are theological concepts for those who would otherwise intend to be baptised, and as such, does not replace baptism so to teach them as being valid ways of entering the Church would be incorrect, because by themselves, they are not.
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#6
Now, can aynone be saved who is not a member of the church?

No.

If therefore, there is no way to be made a member of the church apart from baptism, and nobody can be saved who is not a member, then no one can be saved who has not received baptism.

Is it necessary to be born again to be justified?
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#7
Pope St. Pius V's Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus: http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma11.php

1031 31. Perfect and sincere charity, which is from a "pure heart and good conscience and a faith not feigned" [1 Tim. 1:5], can be in catechumens as well as in penitents without the remission of sins.

1032 32. That charity which is the fullness of the law is not always connected with the remission of sins.

1033 33. A catechumen lives justly and rightly and holily, and observes the commandments of God, and fulfills the law through charity, which is only received in the laver of baptism, before the remission of sins has been obtained.

1070 70. Man existing in the state of mortal sin, or under the penalty of eternal damnation can have true charity; and even perfect charity can exist along with the guilt of eternal damnation.

1071 71. Through contrition even when joined with perfect charity and with the desire to receive the sacrament, a crime is not remitted without the actual reception of the sacrament, except in case of necessity, or of martyrdom.

-- Condemned.

"The condemnation by Pius V of the 79 Baianist tenets is an act of the supreme magisterium of the Church, an ex cathedrâ pronouncement. ...  From the tenor of the Bull, 'Ex Omnibus', we know that to each of the 79 propositions one or several or all of the following censures will apply: hæretica, erronea, suspecta, temeraria, scandalosa, in pias aures offendens."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02209c.htm

See also: http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=28&catname=2
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#8
Do you have an issue with the whole concept of a BOD, or the theological prozac (read: universalism disguised as BOD) that seems to be popular these days?
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#9
(05-01-2011, 07:44 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Pope St. Pius V's Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus: http://www.catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma11.php

1031 31. Perfect and sincere charity, which is from a "pure heart and good conscience and a faith not feigned" [1 Tim. 1:5], can be in catechumens as well as in penitents without the remission of sins.

That simply means that an unbaptized person cannot have perfect charity; the unregenerate are not capable of perfect charity, and the catechumen is unregenerate.

1032 32. That charity which is the fullness of the law is not always connected with the remission of sins.

Again, all this means is the unregenerate does not have perfect charity. Because his sins have not been remitted

1033 33. A catechumen lives justly and rightly and holily, and observes the commandments of God, and fulfills the law through charity, which is only received in the laver of baptism, before the remission of sins has been obtained.

This simply means a catechumen CANNOT live justly rightly and holily [b] BEFORE receiving the remission of sins only baptism can supply. remember, the WHOLE proposition is condemned.[/b]

1070 70. Man existing in the state of mortal sin, or under the penalty of eternal damnation can have true charity; and even perfect charity can exist along with the guilt of eternal damnation.

This means a person in original sin or mortal sin cannot have true charity that exists alongside the eternal penalty of sin.

1071 71. Through contrition even when joined with perfect charity and with the desire to receive the sacrament, a crime is not remitted without the actual reception of the sacrament, except in case of necessity, or of martyrdom.

This is referring to the sacrament of penance, not baptism; WHICH by implication means that those in question are already baptized, because only the baptised can receive the sacrament of penance and the remission of sins that comes from perfect charity.
-- Condemned.

"The condemnation by Pius V of the 79 Baianist tenets is an act of the supreme magisterium of the Church, an ex cathedrâ pronouncement. ...  From the tenor of the Bull, 'Ex Omnibus', we know that to each of the 79 propositions one or several or all of the following censures will apply: hæretica, erronea, suspecta, temeraria, scandalosa, in pias aures offendens."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02209c.htm

See also: http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=28&catname=2
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#10
Gregory I,
Please note that the propositions were all condemned.  So, saying that catechumens cannot have perfect charity (and remission of sins) is erroneous; what was condemned in n. 1031 was that catechumens could have perfect charity without also the remission of sins.  I also forgot to refer to another condemned proposition:

"1043 43. In persons who are penitent before the sacrament of absolution, and in catechumens before baptism, there is true justification, yet separated from the remission of sin."

Saying that catechumens cannot have repentance unto justification and remission of sins is false.  Now, if catechumens can have perfect charity (n. 1031), and one who has perfect charity is not damned (n. 1070), then it follows that catechumens who have perfect charity are not damned, and are thus in a state of justification/sanctifying grace (stated explicitly in n. 1043).

I've yet to come across one theologian who's interpreted Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus in the same manner as you have.  On the contrary, whenever it's been cited, it's been done so in favor of baptism of desire (e.g., Solà; McAuliffe;  Hervé, III: 563; Merkelbach, III, 113; see my link to Fr. Cekada's article for the first two authors).

See also http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#X for an appeal to Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus in support of BoD.
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