Another EENS, please be patient...
#61
We'll just take your word for it. :salute:
Reply
#62
(05-05-2011, 05:36 PM)Stubborn Wrote: We'll just take your word for it. :salute:

I hope not.

I hope you go read St. Augustine, The Fathers, Trent, Roman Catechism, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, all theologians prior to trent, the commentators on the Summa, basically, anyone who was in the Church, who talked about it.  Rather, take their word for it.  Have some happy and Blessed Reading!

Reply
#63
HOw about a document from the ordinary magisterium instead of the private opinion of theologians? Anybody have on of those?
Reply
#64
(05-05-2011, 09:16 PM)jordanawef Wrote: I hope you go read St. Augustine, The Fathers, Trent, Roman Catechism, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, all theologians prior to trent, the commentators on the Summa, basically, anyone who was in the Church, who talked about it.  Rather, take their word for it.  Have some happy and Blessed Reading!

You're late to the party pal - much of what you're telling me to do has already been done, go back and read the rest of this thread.

But to further your education, I'll throw a few quotes from St. Thomas out there for you - and since your time is limited - I even gave you the link...........St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica: Article 1. Whether all are bound to receive Baptism?

On the contrary,
It is written (John 3:5): "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Again it is stated in De Eccl. Dogm. xli, that "we believe the way of salvation to be open to those only who are baptized."

I answer that, Men are bound to that without which they cannot obtain salvation...................Consequently it is manifest that all are bound to be baptized: and that without Baptism there is no salvation for men.

Reply to Objection 1. At no time, not even before the coming of Christ, could men be saved unless they became members of Christ:............Consequently although the sacrament itself of Baptism was not always necessary for salvation, yet faith, of which Baptism is the sacrament, was always necessary.

Reply to Objection 2 ........Consequently the children of those who are baptized are born with original sin; wherefore they need to be baptized.

Reply to Objection 3.Those who are sanctified in the womb, receive indeed grace which cleanses them from original sin, but they do not therefore receive the character, by which they are conformed to Christ. Consequently, if any were to be sanctified in the womb now, they would need to be baptized, in order to be conformed to Christ's other members by receiving the character.

You really should read the rest of this thread when you get some time.
Reply
#65
Baptism of desire does not encroach upon necessity of baptism.  Its all in your head.
Reply
#66
(05-05-2011, 10:48 PM)Gregory I Wrote: HOw about a document from the ordinary magisterium instead of the private opinion of theologians? Anybody have on of those?

The Roman Catechsim is THE document of the Ordinary Magisterium.  It holds privilege of place amongst all catechisms, and it spells it out quite plainly in there.
Reply
#67
(05-06-2011, 07:27 AM)Stubborn Wrote:
(05-05-2011, 09:16 PM)jordanawef Wrote: I hope you go read St. Augustine, The Fathers, Trent, Roman Catechism, St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, all theologians prior to trent, the commentators on the Summa, basically, anyone who was in the Church, who talked about it.  Rather, take their word for it.  Have some happy and Blessed Reading!

You're late to the party pal - much of what you're telling me to do has already been done, go back and read the rest of this thread.

But to further your education, I'll throw a few quotes from St. Thomas out there for you - and since your time is limited - I even gave you the link...........St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica: Article 1. Whether all are bound to receive Baptism?

You should really get off the internet, learn latin, and read what the Church teaches.  Farewell.  I am not commenting on this thread anymore. 
On the contrary,
It is written (John 3:5): "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Again it is stated in De Eccl. Dogm. xli, that "we believe the way of salvation to be open to those only who are baptized."

I answer that, Men are bound to that without which they cannot obtain salvation...................Consequently it is manifest that all are bound to be baptized: and that without Baptism there is no salvation for men.

Reply to Objection 1. At no time, not even before the coming of Christ, could men be saved unless they became members of Christ:............Consequently although the sacrament itself of Baptism was not always necessary for salvation, yet faith, of which Baptism is the sacrament, was always necessary.

Reply to Objection 2 ........Consequently the children of those who are baptized are born with original sin; wherefore they need to be baptized.

Reply to Objection 3.Those who are sanctified in the womb, receive indeed grace which cleanses them from original sin, but they do not therefore receive the character, by which they are conformed to Christ. Consequently, if any were to be sanctified in the womb now, they would need to be baptized, in order to be conformed to Christ's other members by receiving the character.

You really should read the rest of this thread when you get some time.
Reply
#68
(05-06-2011, 09:40 AM)jordanawef Wrote:
(05-05-2011, 10:48 PM)Gregory I Wrote: HOw about a document from the ordinary magisterium instead of the private opinion of theologians? Anybody have on of those?

The Roman Catechsim is THE document of the Ordinary Magisterium.  It holds privilege of place amongst all catechisms, and it spells it out quite plainly in there........................................................

Baptism of desire does not encroach upon necessity of baptism.  Its all in your head................

You should really get off the internet, learn latin, and read what the Church teaches.  Farewell.  I am not commenting on this thread anymore.

:pazzo:
Reply
#69
A catechism is not a magisterial document. It is a compendium of doctrines from the magisterium.

THe manifest proof of this is that a catechism must be in accord with the magisterium. How can it be a magisterial document if it is subject to the teaching of the magisterium.

Non-sequitur, "It does not follow."

I am not judging the Roman Catechism as either false useless or heretical: Simply not a magisterial Documnet. No Catechism is, esp. the CCC.

COMPENDIUMS of Catholic Doctrines SELECTED FROM the Magisterium.

So once again: Where in the ordinary Magisterium is BOD taught, or, on another variant, Virtual membership in the church being sufficient for salvation, and not actual membership.
Reply
#70


There is only one sacrament of baptism: that of water.

And there are two non-sacramental ways of achieving the same end which is that of justification: the desire for the sacrament of baptism and the shedding of blood for the love of Christ Our Lord.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)