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#81
It says those who die in original sin alone descend to hell where they are punished.

In other words, people without personal fault can die and go to hell.  Original sin alone is damning.

Thus, Bl. Pope Pius IX either misspoke, or he does not mean what we think he means.

Either way, this dogma preceded him, and he is bound to it.
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#82
Those without use of reason who die without baptism are indeed punished for the original sin with which they are born; but their punishment is negative, because their sin is not personal nor willful.  In other words, it does not consist in the hell-fire of the damned but simply in the deprivation of the Divine Vision.  And yet they are to lead a good, simple, naturally happy life in the hereafter.
Remember:  God is All-Merciful, All-Loving, All-Forgiving, All-Divine and Infinitely Good and Kind.  He is above all Our Father.  We will never fathom the depth of His Divine Love for us.
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#83
I Agree that those who die in original sin alone are principally punished with the loss of the vision of God. But AFTER that point is where the whole Limbo speculation begins.

I personally believe they have to suffer SOMETHING, because they are punished. There is no real reason to suppose a kind of natural happiness in a realm of punishment.
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#84
Gregory I says: "I agree that those who die in original sin alone are principally punished with the loss of the vision of God. But AFTER that point is where the whole Limbo speculation begins.  I personally believe they have to suffer SOMETHING, because they are punished. There is no real reason to suppose a kind of natural happiness in a realm of punishment. "

Punishment is pain inflicted  when warranted.  Those babies are personally innocent of the sin of Adam and Eve. When God makes their soul, it is a clean soul. Unfortunately, they are contaminated upon conception.  Thus, the only punishment the Good Lord can mete out is simply deprivation of Vision of the Divine Essence.  All else does not fit in with the utter goodness of God-All Merciful. .

 

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#85
NO. THat is heretical.

Man is injured in his soul from the creation of the soul until baptism. Man is guilty of the sin of Adam and eve, it being in each man as his own, and is under the wrath of God, a slave to sin and death, and incapable of doing any supernaturally pleasing work before being empowered by grace.

Read all of Session 5 of the council of Trent.

Babies that are born are norn guilty and justly condemned for their sinfulness, not innocent.

AS Pope St. gregory I teaches: "Even the infant of a single day is not pure in his sight."

No man is ever innocent before baptism. THis is not Calvinism, this is Augustine and Trent and Florence

Our default operating mode is HELL. Heaven is a gift, without which we are damned. Without exception. Children just look cute. They are not innocent.
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#86
Gregory I says: "As Pope St. gregory I teaches: "Even the infant of a single day is not pure in his sight." 

That is what I say.  Upon conception, the soul becomes contaminated.  But since there is no ill will to commit a mortal sin in a fetus or in a baby without the use of reason, punishment does not consist in the hell-fire of the damned but in the simple deprivation of the Vision of the Divine Essence.

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#87
(05-11-2011, 12:17 AM)wulfrano Wrote: That is what I say.  Upon conception, the soul becomes contaminated.  But since there is no ill will to commit a mortal sin in a fetus or in a baby without the use of reason, punishment does not consist in the hell-fire of the damned but in the simple deprivation of the Vision of the Divine Essence.

But properly understood, Limbo would still be a part of Hell, right?  Even if it is the at the "outskirts."  Or have I been reading too much Dante?
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#88
Pheo says: "But properly understood, Limbo would still be a part of Hell, right?  Even if it is the at the "outskirts."  Or have I been reading too much Dante?"

You are absolutely right!  Limbo is still a part of Hell... but is at the outskirts.  You haven't been reading too much Dante.  Even though Dante was a genius, still his portrait of Hell is quite childish.  You want a real portrait?  Read the vision of hell that the children of Fatima had.
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#89
THe souls of infants are not created prior to conception, else you would believe in the pre-existence of human souls which was condemned at COnstantinople II as one of the errors of Origen. The Human soul is created and infused simultaneously at the moment of conception, neither earlier, nor later.
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#90
Gregory I has said:

"THe souls of infants are not created prior to conception, else you would believe in the pre-existence of human souls which was condemned at COnstantinople II as one of the errors of Origen. The Human soul is created and infused simultaneously at the moment of conception, neither earlier, nor later."

Divine creation is pure and spotless.  Divine Infusion is pure and spotless.  Conception is contaminating. 

 

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