Universae Ecclesiae released - full English text
#21
(05-13-2011, 07:42 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: Rueters is reporting this as a return to the middle ages! Maybe this will turn out to be awesome if the media convinces everyone it has more teeth than it has :)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/1...9120110513

The Reuters article doesn't use the term "middle ages"... UE has teeth, the question is whether Ecclesia Dei will bite...

From Reuters: "Most Catholics regard the old mass as nostalgic, rigid and something that turns the clock back on the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, which for some brought the church into modern times."

When I spoke to my NO parish priest as I left the NO for the TLM this is basically how he described the TLM... sort of as a backwards-thinking unnecessary thing that the Pope is, for reasons unknown, keeping on life support.

Well, I hope Bishops feel the pressure, one way or the other.

For me, once I "experienced" the TLM there was just no going back to the NO. I guess my hope is that with UE most Catholics end up experiencing the TLM and then just naturally clamouring for it. Cos I guess most Catholics have no clue what the TLM is actually like
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#22
Quote:The Reuters article doesn't use the term "middle ages"

If you read between the lines....it does!
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#23
A Carmelite over at CAF is whining that some part of the seminary curriculum would have to be chucked in order to offer Latin classes. (?) (!)
  I just noticed that canon 249 of the 1983 code mandates the teaching of Latin in seminaries. But the US bishops submitted guidelines which stated only that Latin is "strongly recommended" and the Vatican approved them! Makes me wonder what the point of canon law is anymore.

C.
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#24
(05-13-2011, 07:54 AM)Someone1776 Wrote:
Quote:The Reuters article doesn't use the term "middle ages"

If you read between the lines....it does!

I agree!!!! :D
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#25
We might want to remember he is the Pope of all Catholics. Those that are modernists, not the folks in the pews, brought the abuses in the  Novus Ordo, and a sudden complete change would only be applauded by certain young 'Trads" that are full of piss and vinegar. ( Yep, you guys, my pals.)Think of Lisa. Is she less than Catholic ? I don't think so !  If you had been 20 when those changes came like I was, you all would be bitter old men now. The Pope wants to keep as many as he can. This is lightening like speed compared to the Church before Vatican II. Do not despair this Pope will have more  as long as he lives. If it isn't apparent to us, he is cerebral and measured, and as much as Father Z. has some kinks his analysis is spot on "brick by brick".

Part of what we see in the Church can be attributed directly to no catechesis. We need the Baltimore Catechism. It worked for generations and is still superior to any way the Faith is taught today. It is foundational. That book conveys the Faith and keeps the teacher too on the same page, no riffing. In my mind's eye the next thing is curtailing the long protestant sermons. The Mass is not the vehicle for extended homilies, nor is it for the teaching of Catachumens, any longer. Have we ever seen the Catachumens dismissed lately ?  This is a vehicle that is abused turning the Mass into a Protestant Lord's Supper.

Before the Motu Proprio, at the time that the Vatican Cardinals pushed Archbishop Ranjith out, he spoke for Pope Benedict XVI, saying homilies should be only between 5-8 minutes. No one got the memo. This is crucial to teaching the Faith. I hope it's next. After that I hope he addresses the over abundance of "Theologians". The Church Militant is an Army, which by definition is all most entirely "privates". We have way to many Lieutenants expressing their deep wisdom. ( I purposefully employed Lieutenants because it's the rank upon graduation,  and if after a few years you're not at Minimum a Capitan, then it's time to take up knitting. ) Think of all these geniuses out there in Novus Ordo Terra, in the blogosphere, with an opinion on everything, some of which might possibly be Catholic.

I hope Pope Benedict reads Fisheaters and uses HK's idea about minor orders. Can you guys see a Deacon teaching from the Baltimore Catechism ? I can and it would be grand.

tim
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#26
(05-13-2011, 08:02 AM)Cetil Wrote: A Carmelite over at CAF is whining that some part of the seminary curriculum would have to be chucked in order to offer Latin classes. (?) (!)

In Toronto, St. Augustine's Seminary is introducing an extra year into the training of priests.  If I recall correctly, they are also making Latin mandatory.
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#27
Quote: 19. The faithful who ask for the celebration of the forma extraordinaria must not in any way support or belong to groups which show themselves to be against the validity or legitimacy of the Holy Mass or the Sacraments celebrated in the forma ordinaria or against the Roman Pontiff as Supreme Pastor of the Universal Church.

I understand and I obey.  The Novus Ordo though valid and legitimate still stinks in its impoverishment and in its faulty and prone-to-be- heretical translations and the SSPX is correct since they don't question the validity or the legitimacy of the Pope's right to introduce a rite nor the validity when properly offered as in the edition signed by PaulVI.  The SSPX is against the sacrilege and apostasy it represents in its teleological function.  As the never-to-be-abused-enough Bishop Williamson has said, "Had the Novus Ordo been a rite which more clearly expressed the faith than the TLM, there would have never been a crisis nor an SSPX. "

That said, the Novus Ordo is not everywhere and in all cases celebrated legitimately or validly by apostates who while being in "full communion" canonically are deliberately or not using the wrong form, matter or intent or any combination of the 3. 

So in the end,  it's those Novus Ordo groups which abuse the Novus Ordo that the Pope is essentially telling us to not support.  Any bishop that resists the Pope's Summorum Pontificum is not to be supported in any way. 

THANK YOU HOLY FATHER!  Now nobody should fear acknowledging the crisis and avoiding the diocesan structure if there is an SSPX chapel nearby.  Since the SSPX doesn't abuse the Novus Ordo and the Bishops of the SSPX acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as the Supreme Pastor of the Universal Church, which is more than many diocesan bishops. 
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#28
23. The faculty to celebrate sine populo (or with the participation of only one minister) in the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite is given by the Motu Proprio to all priests, whether secular or religious (cf. Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, art. 2). For such celebrations therefore, priests, by provision of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, do not require any special permission from their Ordinaries or superiors.


YES!  That is great for religious communities!!
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#29
(05-13-2011, 08:35 AM)timoose Wrote: If you had been 20 when those changes came like I was, you all would be bitter old men now. The Pope wants to keep as many as he can. This is lightening like speed compared to the Church before Vatican II. Do not despair this Pope will have more  as long as he lives. If it isn't apparent to us, he is cerebral and measured, and as much as Father Z. has some kinks his analysis is spot on "brick by brick".

I agree (except for the spelling of "lightening").  LOL.

For those of you who are younger and were not around to witness "the changes," you have to understand that, although you may not think so, the pendulum has swung significantly from "the early years," when the old Roman Mass seemed to have disappeared from the face of the earth and we had congregations of the Vatican basically lying about its legitimacy (1974, I believe), as is now evident from the pope's statement awhile ago. 

This is a significant document in the life of the Church and will have great influence on the future, even if we cannot see its full impact now.
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#30
(05-13-2011, 08:35 AM)timoose Wrote: We might want to remember he is the Pope of all Catholics. Those that are modernists, not the folks in the pews, brought the abuses in the  Novus Ordo, and a sudden complete change would only be applauded by certain young 'Trads" that are full of piss and vinegar. ( Yep, you guys, my pals.)Think of Lisa. Is she less than Catholic ? I don't think so !  If you had been 20 when those changes came like I was, you all would be bitter old men now. The Pope wants to keep as many as he can. This is lightening like speed compared to the Church before Vatican II. Do not despair this Pope will have more  as long as he lives. If it isn't apparent to us, he is cerebral and measured, and as much as Father Z. has some kinks his analysis is spot on "brick by brick".

Part of what we see in the Church can be attributed directly to no catechesis. We need the Baltimore Catechism. It worked for generations and is still superior to any way the Faith is taught today. It is foundational. That book conveys the Faith and keeps the teacher too on the same page, no riffing. In my mind's eye the next thing is curtailing the long protestant sermons. The Mass is not the vehicle for extended homilies, nor is it for the teaching of Catachumens, any longer. Have we ever seen the Catachumens dismissed lately ?  This is a vehicle that is abused turning the Mass into a Protestant Lord's Supper.

Before the Motu Proprio, at the time that the Vatican Cardinals pushed Archbishop Ranjith out, he spoke for Pope Benedict XVI, saying homilies should be only between 5-8 minutes. No one got the memo. This is crucial to teaching the Faith. I hope it's next. After that I hope he addresses the over abundance of "Theologians". The Church Militant is an Army, which by definition is all most entirely "privates". We have way to many Lieutenants expressing their deep wisdom. ( I purposefully employed Lieutenants because it's the rank upon graduation,  and if after a few years you're not at Minimum a Capitan, then it's time to take up knitting. ) Think of all these geniuses out there in Novus Ordo Terra, in the blogosphere, with an opinion on everything, some of which might possibly be Catholic.

I hope Pope Benedict reads Fisheaters and uses HK's idea about minor orders. Can you guys see a Deacon teaching from the Baltimore Catechism ? I can and it would be grand.

tim


Good show!
Can I buy you a drink and shake your hand?? :amen: :cheers:
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