Universae Ecclesiae released - full English text
(05-14-2011, 06:28 AM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: By using the word "this" you're admitting that you believe that Pope Benedict is a heretic. You keep alluding to this in your posts. I think this resembles the techniques of modernists: always skirting around the issue, never saying exactly what they think, never being able to be pinned down, always trying to appear orthodox. You're following the letter of the law (we can't call the Pope a heretic on FE) but you're completely ignoring the spirit of the law and that's what I find so dangerous and harmful.

There's nothing dangerous or harmful in believing that a certain pope has fallen into heresy. This and other scandalous things have happened before and people didn't cease being Catholics. Actually, the real danger here is believing that heresies magically become orthodox teachings by the mere fact that a pope utters them.

Yes, I don't directly accuse the pope of heresy in obedience to the forum rules, that's all. Are you accusing me of obeying the forum rules?

Quote:Let's be frank: when the Pope releases a document on the TLM, many neo-Catholics will look to the Trads. You're needlessly causing scandal. That you bring the Jews up disparagingly on this thread and drag the Holy Father's name thru the mud is completely unacceptable. And that's getting my undies in a knot? How about not wanting to turn people off from Traditionalism unnecessarily. I think that's of paramount importance.


Yes, you and others have become the paramount leaders of on-line "traddom," perhaps the quintessential "welcome wagon." Get real.

These papal issues will pop up time and again because the Pope isn't orthodox to begin with. That's the real scandal, not the fact that there are Catholics who recognise that the Emperor wears no clothes. You can't hide the truth or make up lies in order to become more appealing. I get the sense that many people here are falling for this classical modernist trap: an urge to make the faith appealing and credible to those outside at the expense of truth. Newcomers will be able to deal with hard issues in due time and if they aren't, then that's because the grace of God wasn't operating within them to begin with. The question about the Jews is crucial because the modern Church is ruled by them. It's the big elephant in the room. If you want to know where a given person really stands in regard to tradition and the faith, bring up the Jews. The "fear of the Jews" is now a universal phenomenon, unfortunately even within traditional fraternities like the SSPX.

Quote:This is really what I find upsetting - you're painting a false dichotomy here. It appears you offer two choices: Pope Benedict isn't orthodox (which is like saying he's not Catholic) or we have to be neo-Catholic Pope devotees. There is always a middle road. I mean the Pope writes a 200-page book and folks get tied up in knots over a few lines. It was the same with Verbum Domini - the document has many excellent passages, encouraging the faithful to pray the Angelus, for example, which is an extremely traditional practice, yet that text was basically ignored on FE except some folks were going bonkers about female Lectors. But in UE we have ironclad assurance from the Holy Father that altar girls and female Lectors cannot be introduced into the TLM. So there's a middle way. I don't like everything the Pope does but I'm not going to dismiss him as a heretic or automatically assume that I know better than he does on complex controversial issues.

You're exhibiting incredible ingenuousness here. I hope and trust this will change with time.

The very definition of a modernist is that he's able to utter in the same breath something clearly orthodox and then something unmistakably heretical.

Quote:That's most humans do - they dismiss the Pope out of hand as irrelevant so that they don't have to listen to him. It's hard to submit to leadership. It's easier and more enjoyable to "live by our own convictions" but taken to its logical conclusion that becomes a Protestant ethos.

Of course.

Unlike your "Catholic ethos" that submits to error and heresy. St. Paul should have learned from you.

Quote:That you even bring up the Jews on a thread that has nothing to do with them makes you look far more hysterical than I do. And you do this in thread after thread. It's like there's this need to prove that the Jews are the root of all evil.

See my second response in this post. 

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Re: Universae Ecclesiae released - full English text - by Vetus Ordo - 05-14-2011, 12:18 PM

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