Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan.

[Christus Imperat]

Vetus,

Has God given you a personal revelation that Bl. John Paul II is in hell?

[Vetus Ordo]

Vetus,

Has God given you a personal revelation that Bl. John Paul II is in hell?

No.

What makes you think that?

[Christus Imperat]

Vetus,

Has God given you a personal revelation that Bl. John Paul II is in hell?

No.

What makes you think that?

You are sitting in judgment over the soul of the late pontiff.  For example: The "system" is not to be blamed if a person dies in impenitence.  Either you mean to assert that it is highly likely Karol Wojtyla died in final impenitence, or you are making gratuitous statements. 

Would your worldview collapse if it were true that John Paul is in heaven (or purgatory) and that his intercession was aiding exorcists?

[SCG]

To me, there's no contradiction between these two statements:

1)  Blessed John Paul II is in heaven and can be a powerful intercessor for exorcists as well as others.

2) He should not be canonized because of faults in his papacy which can't be parsed out of the historical record and ignored.

Really, is it any surprise to think he'd be in heaven?  Presumably he had Last Rites and the opportunity for any number of plenary indulgences.  Regardless of how much of the abuse scandal, apostasy in the hierarchy, or the spread of ecumenical heresy people want to lay at his door, if he went to his death with final impenitence and the proper rites, he should have had all temporal punishment wiped away and sailed right into heaven.  That's how it's supposed to work; we're all given the same promise.  If a pope, knowing that death is approaching, surrounded by priests and with millions of people praying for him daily, can't make that system work for himself, something is seriously wrong.

But we don't canonize people because there's evidence they're in heaven -- at least that's not the only requirement.

Of course you are correct about the canonization. As for going to heaven, I would like to add that it is a FACT Pope John Paul II wore the brown scapular all his life and at his death. it is also a fact that he died on a First Saturday. We know the promise of the brown scapular and dying on a First Saturday.

[Vetus Ordo]

You are sitting in judgment over the soul of the late pontiff.  For example: The "system" is not to be blamed if a person dies in impenitence.  Either you mean to assert that it is highly likely Karol Wojtyla died in final impenitence, or you are making gratuitous statements.

You need to re-read what was written.

I was addressing Mhoram's post claiming that "if a pope, knowing that death is approaching, surrounded by priests and with millions of people praying for him daily, can't make that system work for himself, something is seriously wrong." 

So, this is not so much about John Paul II himself but about popes in general and the ability of the "system" to work.

Would your worldview collapse if it were true that John Paul is in heaven (or purgatory) and that his intercession was aiding exorcists?

No, it wouldn't "collapse" although I can do without your condescension.

If anything, the possibility of John Paul II being in heaven makes traditional Catholicism look rather spurious, that's all.

[damooster]

I thought exorcists were not supposed to converse with demons other than to get their names. Am I just incorrect? I can't remember where I read that, but I do remember reading it.

[Tim]

I wouldn't trust anything a demon said. They can confuse the crap out of the most pius and learned. What chance would we have of figuring it out ?

tim

[straymondpenafort]

Vetus Ordo said:

I rather think that the way you live your life is the way you are going to die.

Deathbed repentance and conversion is very rare.



This!...............(speaking in general terms, not about any one specific person...

-----------------------------------------
St. Raymond of Penafort , pray for us

[Gerard]

I wouldn't trust anything a demon said. They can confuse the crap out of the most pius and learned. What chance would we have of figuring it out ?

tim

Exactly.  It could very well be that these demons that "react" to well to the invocation of Mother Teresa and JPII (both of whom had problems with indifferentism concerning religion and EENS)  are simply faking it in order to thwart the exorcist and create an ineffective cult of Novus Ordo personalities in order to limit the overall effectiveness of exorcism.

Fr. Amorth has been lead astray I believe on more than one occasion.  He praised Bob Larson who is a non-Catholic exorcist and a fraud as far as I'm concerned.  Archbishop Milingo was more than likely fooled and I wouldn't be surprised to find out he's been possessed for a number of years and Fr. Euteneuar was brought down through a simple human temptation.  The Devil often uses urgency as a way to make an exorcist cut corners and make himself vulnerable.

[Bakuryokuso]

If anything, the possibility of John Paul II being in heaven makes traditional Catholicism look rather spurious, that's all.

Vetus, I know you've created a very "tight" narrative for yourself about traditionalism in the light of Vatican II but we're the laity, we're not going to be able to know everything. For us to obey Christ in the light of traditional church teaching should be sufficient.

Traditional Catholicism is true religion, so I don't really think anything can make it spurious. I think all questions will be answered one day and it could take decades and centuries to sort some of this nonsense out so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Gerard the Silver Surfer - I saw Bob Larson in person, wayyyyyy back inna day.