businesses and trads
#1
Interesting thing I found.
======================================================
Why are there almost no businessmen/professionals among traditional Catholics?

As a corollary, any time you meet a businessman or professional at your local traditional Catholic chapel, you can be certain you're speaking to a convert (or at least a convert from the Novus Ordo). Why is that?

The US Military seems to be a particular darling of Traditional Catholics. Yes, I find that hard to stomach as well. I suppose it's where you go if you want a respectable living, but have no hope otherwise of achieving that goal.

I say this as a life-long Traditional Catholic. I've been around the block a few times when it comes to traditional Catholicism. I'm certainly on to something.

An SSPX priest at the North American seminary spoke about this several times. He would often mock the lack of ambition shown by many young men he met, particularly how they were only interested in "huntin' and fishin'"

Maybe a sad, misguided attempt to be masculine in a world that has destroyed true masculinity? Masculinity is hard to find these days, as in, there are few true male role models for young men to look up to? So they end up finding crude ideas about what it means to be a man (hunting and fishing).

I suppose it's good to have down-to-earth skills, but it seems like traditional Catholics are more melancholic in temperament and/or easily discouraged by the countless obstacles involved in starting a business, or becoming a highly paid professional.

One of the obstacles might be going out into the Big Bad World which many trads tend to isolate themselves from. Also, why go through all the trouble to become a Lawyer when the world is going to end soon, or the Three Days of Darkness are just around the corner?

I'm not mocking, I'm just pointing out some possible explanations. I think this is an important discussion to have.
Reply
#2
(05-23-2011, 08:38 PM)love alabama Wrote: As a corollary, any time you meet a businessman or professional at your local traditional Catholic chapel, you can be certain you're speaking to a convert (or at least a convert from the Novus Ordo). Why is that?

Ok so whoever wrote that seemed to exclude businessmen/professional trads in order to demonstrate that there aren't many businessmen/professional trads.

But I don't know, maybe lifelong trads have higher vocation rates?
Reply
#3
Are we talking trads being corporate minded or just trads being well off? 

Truthfully, most of the trads I know are pretty well minded business folk.  It may not be white collar but if its blue collar its sure as hell paying well.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#4
(05-23-2011, 08:38 PM)love alabama Wrote: I suppose it's good to have down-to-earth skills, but it seems like traditional Catholics are more melancholic in temperament and/or easily discouraged by the countless obstacles involved in starting a business, or becoming a highly paid professional.

I think there is something to what you say, love alabama.  I have noticed similar things, though my experience with trads is certainly not equal to yours.  But I don't think this part I have quoted is part of the explanation.  I am as melancholic as they come (or so I'm told), and I find the overcoming of obstacles to be irresistible, not discouraging.  Maybe I am "unmelancholic" in this area, but this doesn't seem to fit.  I think you are closer with some of your other suggestions - a bunker mentality and a misunderstanding of masculinity.  Also, with the presumably higher rate of home schooled kids among trads, perhaps there are simply less men who are qualified.  Nothing against homeschooling - done well it can be superior to public or private school, but done badly (and I think it is frequently done badly) it can leave educational gaps that cannot be easily overcome that prevent entry into these professional fields.
Reply
#5
Since when are hunting and fishing crude ideas of what it means to be a man?

I'll take a man a little rough around the edges who knows his way around these "crude" activities over whatever else is being suggested. I don't even know. A real man is NOT supposed to know how to hunt and fish?  :shrug:  What does that have to do with business sense anyway?

What a strange article. With NO research behind it. I'd be interested if the writer crunched some numbers, clarified a few ideas and come back with something a little more concrete.

(Like comparing the very high number of trads who are converts, to the number of cradle trads. If 80% of trads are converts then it makes sense that the higher number of trad businessmen will also be converts.)

(Or the percentage of professionals in the entire population compared to the percentage of professionals in trad-dom. There aren't many people "in the world" who are business professionals either, compared to those who are worker bees.)

(Or what is meant by "man", because this seems to be equating manhood with business sense and God knows I'll take a poor laborer with virtue over a rich professional without it. A rich professional with it would be great too, no doubt. But this seems to be blurring a line between business and manhood, like one necessitates the other, which is false.)

(Our percentage of vocations would factor in too, as mentioned above.)

(Starting out as one of 10, with less of mommy and daddy's college money than an only child could also factor in, if it's true.)

There's just too much that would have to be researched before anyone could come to those conclusions. I don't equate business sense with manhood and I can think of so many trad businessmen off the top of my head ( I refuse to discount converts b/c so many are converts to start with), so I have to whole-heartedly disagree unless more proof can be provided.


Reply
#6
I agree with the comments so far that lack of good male role models and perhaps a seige-like mentality have frustrated traditionalists from being represented much in the businessworld.

However, I would add that there are a lot of complex factors that could disuade a traditionalist from pursuing such a role.

Many traditionalists are not given to our system of starting and flipping businesses:

- much lower risk tolerance (there is a high chance that you lose everything you have when you start a business)

- such men object to mass produced mediocrity meant to satisfy base impulses (call NOW and we'll double your order of this pastic wedge with a logo!!)

- objections to marketing techniques and pricing (is it moral to 'create' demand with a hokey ad? Weird fees like 'processing' often represent the entire payoff but is it morally acceptable to assess fees this way?)

- the corporate world is about as divorced from God as it gets (men are mere mechanical parts, politics is totally for sale, what one can get away with is ok even if it hurts and kills people, the end goal is not a great product or service, but rather it is money.)

Also, we cannot forget that so much of material success is connections.  Being a faithful traditional Catholic cuts you out from huge parts of society.  Freemasons and Shiners have a lot of local sway as does the neighborhood moderate Protestant minister.  Man men literally conduct business by way of strip clubs and prostitute hiring or even sex parties.

Sadly, the way our system works, huge mega business is encouraged while local organic enterprise is basically impossible.  Of course none of this is remotely sustainable and the Federal Reserve System of usury, being impossible to ever pay down, is in collapse.
Reply
#7
(05-23-2011, 09:59 PM)wallflower Wrote: (Or the percentage of professionals in the entire population compared to the percentage of professionals in trad-dom. There aren't many people "in the world" who are business professionals either, compared to those who are worker bees.)

Yeah, this sounds like it's purely anecdotal.  I started thinking about the proportion of businessmen and professionals in the general population too, and they really don't make up a huge group.  So it makes sense that in small, rural (from the sounds of it), trad communities there wouldn't be all that many men who met the author's description.
Reply
#8
(05-23-2011, 09:59 PM)wallflower Wrote: (Or what is meant by "man", because this seems to be equating manhood with business sense and God knows I'll take a poor laborer with virtue over a rich professional without it. A rich professional with it would be great too, no doubt. But this seems to be blurring a line between business and manhood, like one necessitates the other, which is false.)

Interesting contention because at one well known blog, NeoCatholics past their prime popped off about how marriage should be restricted to those with college degrees (with masters level being the normal requirement), NFP testing mandatory, and substantial proven income/savings.  Apparently to many, the 12 month waiting period to marry is not enough bureaucracy.

Also to add, something is up with men being feminized, in terms of actions and even physically.  If a guys shows a bit of confidence, society paints him as 'rigid' and not collaborative.  Personally, I think one of the best male role models is St. Thomas Beckett and Richard Burton's (may the Lord take mercy on him) virile portrayal of the great Saint:



Personally, hard manual labor transforms a guy.  Spending a day in the hot sun with an axe, manual shears, and a whole lot of stuff to do hones the inner man.
Reply
#9
(05-23-2011, 10:28 PM)kingtheoden Wrote:

Ok. Why are those monks chanting the Dies Irae? And why do they skip from Tuba mirum spargens sonum to the Lacrimosa? They sing only 5 out of 19 stanzas.


Back to the original question... what does "converts" mean? Converts to the Catholic Church, or converts to the trad Catholic world? If it's the latter, it seems absurd to exclude converts from the professional head-count, as most Catholic trads, judging from this forum at least, are "converts." Yet, if the phenomenon the person who wrote this is true, one implication could be that those people who clung to the traditional Mass during the reform were disproportionally blue collar workers. And the question is, why so? What happened to Catholics who were professionals?
Reply
#10
(05-23-2011, 10:52 PM)m.PR Wrote: Ok. Why are those monks chanting the Dies Irae? And why do they skip from Tuba mirum spargens sonum to the Lacrimosa? They sing only 5 out of 19 stanzas.

Cultural Anglicans were not known 40 years ago (nor are they so today) for accurate historical grounding.  In the film, St. Thomas Becket was a Saxon (about as out there as those who claim his mother was a Muslim.)

Actually a lot of the movie is just wrong come to think of it.  But this isa powerful scene still!
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)