The Novus Ordo Question
(06-03-2011, 09:19 PM)JMartyr Wrote: IMHO, to give communion in the hand  shows at least a weakening of faith in the true Presence.

Communion in the hand was not instigated by the Vatican.  At first it was forbidden completely.  Then it was allowed to be continued in jurisdictions that already were disobediently doing it.  Then bishops took that as permission to introduce it.

It is, of course, a very bad idea, but it did not come from any of the post-Vatican II popes. 
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I still think they shouldn't've permitted it...
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Communion in the hand was forbidden by the Council of Rouen in 650, while it resurfaced among 16th century Protestants as a way of denying the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.  Yes, there are some early Fathers who approve of it, but even then, only in certain circumstances (cf. St. Basil, Letter 93).
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(06-03-2011, 09:54 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: I still think they shouldn't've permitted it...

People were doing it without permission.  I think they permitted it at that point so it would not be so obvious they had lost control.  I can't argue that it was a good decision, but it does not seem to have been based in bad theology in this case.
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(06-03-2011, 09:58 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Communion in the hand was forbidden by the Council of Rouen in 650, while it resurfaced among 16th century Protestants as a way of denying the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.  Yes, there are some early Fathers who approve of it, but even then, only in certain circumstances (cf. St. Basil, Letter 93).


Well... the practice has resurfaced in the 21st century as a way of denying the Real Presence... don't you think?
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(06-04-2011, 01:13 AM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-03-2011, 09:58 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Communion in the hand was forbidden by the Council of Rouen in 650, while it resurfaced among 16th century Protestants as a way of denying the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.  Yes, there are some early Fathers who approve of it, but even then, only in certain circumstances (cf. St. Basil, Letter 93).


Well... the practice has resurfaced in the 21st century as a way of denying the Real Presence... don't you think?

I have most often heard the practice justified on antiquarian grounds.  It is a horrible reason, but not as bad as denying the Real Presence.

At this point in time many Catholics have been raised knowing no other way to receive Communion and it has no theological significance for them.  It is just what they are used to.
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(06-01-2011, 12:57 AM)wulfrano Wrote: Blessed are they who have at home and read the Holy Missal of 1957!

At St. Thomas More's where I go to the Latin Mass on the first Sunday of each month the priest has a bunch of Latin English Booklet Missals at the back of the church that the parishioners can use.  These booklets were printed in October 2007 by the Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei which is based in Glenview, Illinois.  I bought two of these booklets the first Sunday that I attended the Latin Mass at St. Thomas More's.  The Latin Mass used in this Booklet Missal is according to the 1962 Typical Edition of the Missale Romanum.

On page 50 of this Booklet Missal it has the Prayers After Low Mass with "Omitted in the 1962 Missal" in brackets.  At St. Thomas More's we say these Prayers After Low Mass while kneeling, which include three Hail Mary's, the Hail Holy Queen prayer and the St. Michael the Archangel prayer.

So wulfrano you might not want to reserve your blessings just for yourself.  God bless.

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On another note, on the first page of this Booklet Missal the Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei have an introductory page.  I just realized that some of this below is part of it.  I will bold the words that the Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei have bold in the introductory.  
Quote:In his Apostolic Letter Summorum Pontificum (7 July, 2007) Pope Benedict clarifies that there are two forms or expressions of the Roman Rite of the Mass.

...

When the Missal of Pope Paul VI took effect in 1970, it was widely and falsely believed that the Traditional Latin Mass (the 1962 Missal) had been abrogated and suspended.

...

In Summorum Pontificum, the Supreme Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI, has put into place new directives for use of the 1962 Missal.  These conditions replace the provisions of Pope John Paul II in Ecclesia Dei.  Pope Benedict declares emphatically "... the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his ordinary" to offer Mass from either one Missal or the other (1962 or 1970).

Summorum Pontificum is now the law of the Church.  It became effective as of 14 September, Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross.

This is a question for anyone that wants to reply to it.  Seeing as of Sept. 14, 2007 that it had already became the  law of the Church that the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his ordinary to say the Traditional Latin Mass do you not think that the recent Ecclesia Dei instruction for the Summorum Pontificum motu proprio was specifically directed to those bishops that are still suppressing the Traditional Latin Mass?          
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(06-04-2011, 01:00 PM)mikemac Wrote:
(06-01-2011, 12:57 AM)wulfrano Wrote: Blessed are they who have at home and read the Holy Missal of 1957!

At St. Thomas More's where I go to the Latin Mass on the first Sunday of each month the priest has a bunch of Latin English Booklet Missals at the back of the church that the parishioners can use.  These booklets were printed in October 2007 by the Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei which is based in Glenview, Illinois.  I bought two of these booklets the first Sunday that I attended the Latin Mass at St. Thomas More's.  The Latin Mass used in this Booklet Missal is according to the 1962 Typical Edition of the Missale Romanum.

On page 50 of this Booklet Missal it has the Prayers After Low Mass with "Omitted in the 1962 Missal" in brackets.  At St. Thomas More's we say these Prayers After Low Mass while kneeling, which include three Hail Mary's, the Hail Holy Queen prayer and the St. Michael the Archangel prayer.

So wulfrano you might not want to reserve your blessings just for yourself.  God bless.

--------------------------------------------------

On another note, on the first page of this Booklet Missal the Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei have an introductory page.  I just realized that some of this below is part of it.  I will bold the words that the Coalition in Support of Ecclesia Dei have bold in the introductory.  
Quote:In his Apostolic Letter Summorum Pontificum (7 July, 2007) Pope Benedict clarifies that there are two forms or expressions of the Roman Rite of the Mass.

...

When the Missal of Pope Paul VI took effect in 1970, it was widely and falsely believed that the Traditional Latin Mass (the 1962 Missal) had been abrogated and suspended.

...

In Summorum Pontificum, the Supreme Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI, has put into place new directives for use of the 1962 Missal.  These conditions replace the provisions of Pope John Paul II in Ecclesia Dei.  Pope Benedict declares emphatically "... the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his ordinary" to offer Mass from either one Missal or the other (1962 or 1970).

Summorum Pontificum is now the law of the Church.  It became effective as of 14 September, Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross.

This is a question for anyone that wants to reply to it.  Seeing as of Sept. 14, 2007 that it had already became the  law of the Church that the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his ordinary to say the Traditional Latin Mass do you not think that the recent Ecclesia Dei instruction for the Summorum Pontificum motu proprio was specifically directed to those bishops that are still suppressing the Traditional Latin Mass?          


Dear Mikemac:  I don't want to arouse your envy but I have in my possession the 1957, the 1955, the 1949, and the 1940 Missal.
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(06-03-2011, 09:59 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(06-03-2011, 09:54 PM)Bakuryokuso Wrote: I still think they shouldn't've permitted it...

People were doing it without permission.  I think they permitted it at that point so it would not be so obvious they had lost control.  I can't argue that it was a good decision, but it does not seem to have been based in bad theology in this case.

This is a fantastic example of what I was talking (Compromise) about in another thread when I replied to you.........

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...4.html#new

Thanks Jayne!
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(06-04-2011, 12:33 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(06-04-2011, 01:13 AM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-03-2011, 09:58 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Communion in the hand was forbidden by the Council of Rouen in 650, while it resurfaced among 16th century Protestants as a way of denying the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.  Yes, there are some early Fathers who approve of it, but even then, only in certain circumstances (cf. St. Basil, Letter 93).


Well... the practice has resurfaced in the 21st century as a way of denying the Real Presence... don't you think?

I have most often heard the practice justified on antiquarian grounds.  It is a horrible reason, but not as bad as denying the Real Presence.

At this point in time many Catholics have been raised knowing no other way to receive Communion and it has no theological significance for them.  It is just what they are used to.


Dear JayneK:  The following monks couldn't care less about such small details.

A renowned monastery in Rome where monks staged concerts featuring a lap-dancer-turned-nun and opened a hotel with a 24-hour limousine service has been shut down by the pope.

As part of Benedict XVI's crackdown on "loose living" within the Catholic church, 20 or so Cistercian monks are now being evicted from the monastery at the basilica of Santa Croce in Gerusalemme, which hosts some of the church's holiest relics.

"An inquiry found evidence of liturgical and financial irregularities as well as lifestyles that were probably not in keeping with that of a monk," said Father Ciro Benedettini, a Vatican spokesman. "The church remains open but the monks are awaiting transfer."

Reports saying the monks amassed large debts have also emerged, but Benedettini declined to give further details of the Vatican report, which was signed off in March.

The monks' days have been numbered since 2009, when the Vatican sacked their flamboyant abbot, Father Simone Fioraso, a former fashion designer who built up a cult following among Rome's fashionable aristocratic crowd as well as show business worshippers such as Madonna, who prayed at the church in 2008.

In 2009 Anna Nobili, a nightclub dancer who became a nun, was invited to perform her "holy dance" before an audience including archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Vatican's cultural department. For her performance Nobili, who says she uses dance as a form of prayer, lies spread-eagled in front of the altar clutching a crucifix or twists and turns as in pole-dancing routines.

Dating back to the 4th century, Santa Croce in Gerusalemme was built to house relics brought back from the Holy Land by the mother of Emperor Constantine.

They include items described as nails and splinters from the cross, thorns from Jesus's crown, and a bone from the finger St Thomas pushed into the wounds of Christ.
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