Malta says 'Yes' to legalizing divorce
#21
(06-01-2011, 03:41 PM)m.PR Wrote:
(05-29-2011, 09:46 PM)moneil Wrote:
Quote: The Catholic Church does not permit divorce but does allow annulments.

The Church does allow civil divorce for grave and necessary reasons.  In doing so She still defends and upholds the sacramental bond of the marriage, and the two parties are not free to remarry.

Divorce is the dissolution of the marriage bond. It is thus a farce and utterly despicable.

What we should say is this: the Church allows married couples to separate. In some cases, in order to settle things such a custody, the Church tolerates that a couple go through the civil legal process of "divorce."


I thought I was primarily saying what you are saying and I apologize if I hadn’t made it clear.  Though, as I stated, divorce is the dissolution of the civil legal partnership.  THAT legal partnership is distinct, actually, from the sacramental bond of marriage (which is NOT dissolved by civil divorce).

The civil recognition of marriage is not about the sacramental and spiritual but rather regards the nitty gritty, secular, temporal, financial, business side of things (that we are cursed with, given our fallen nature) such as control of community property, custody of children or aged relatives, disposition of assets, the right to make medical and end of life decisions, the determination of inheritance (yes, everybody should make a will to deal with this, but, guess what, not everybody gets around to it, then the courts are stuck with sorting it out, and the law has had to develop a lineage of inheritance right to deal with those too irresponsible to make a will).  Indeed, this concept is accentuated by the fact that in several countries (El Salvador is one I know, I believe Germany is another, and there are many others), a couple first marry with the sacramental / spiritual rites of their faith, they then go to city hall and establish the legal “business” partnership, if you will.  It is not a secular government’s place to rule on matters of doctrine, that is reserved for the ecclesiastical magisterium.  However, the secular authorities (especially the courts) do get stuck dealing with situations of spousal abuse, substance abuse within a family, family abandonment by the husband and father (and though more rare, sometimes abandonment by the wife and mother), adultery, abuse or misuse of financial resources that ought to used to support the family, failure to fulfill obligations to children by providing them education and health care (which may involve withholding consent for a child to receive education and health care), etc., etc., etc.

I am as concerned about the state of marriage and the family as anyone, and believe both Church and society must do far more than they are currently to strengthen those institutions.  However, the situations I spoke of above and in my reply #11 are real issues confronting real people (and most often, mothers and vulnerable children).  I believe they are deserving of appropriate legal tools to be allowed to care for themselves when the husband and father becomes negligent in his responsibilities.  I’m not seeing anyone dealing with these realities in the discussion.
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#22
(06-01-2011, 04:09 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: Moneil, your post on Colombia was pretty interesting, but I doubt it has anything to do with Malta's situation. 

Besides, if women face hardships because they need father's or husband's consent for things including even basic medical care or employment isn't the obvious solution .... to change the law so that they don't need consent?

Am I missing something?


I’m not an attorney, and certainly not one with expertise in family law.  When I lived in Colombia I was a single 20 something Peace Corps Volunteer just out of college, and not too obsessed with these matters.  My observation, during the Colombian divorce debate, was largely based on the experience of a Colombian family I was friends with.  The wife’s sister (in her 30’s I think) had 3 – 4 small and school age children and her husband had “disappeared” (I think they suspect he had run off with his mistress).  I just remember her brother-in-law constantly commenting on how difficult things were because of Colombian law or custom at the time (there were so many things she couldn’t do without the written consent of her husband, who she couldn’t find).  Even if she could find him, unless he were of a mind to return home be become a responsible husband and father again, she was at the mercy of his whim as to whether he would cooperate.

I agree that there are probable better solutions to these issues than the wholesale legalization of divorce (as I mentioned in the next to last paragraph of my reply #11), and some thoughtful people in the Church remarked similarly, as I recall.  I also have the recollection (and these recollections are all from a long time ago, in a place far from where I live now) that there was opposition to any effort to raise the status of women or to “dilute” the “authority” of the husband, because, after all, “wives are to be submissive to him”, as St. Paul wrote.  So, this unfortunate deadlock occurred between “status quo” or “divorce”.

Again, I’m not really that familiar with the laws but similar though less draconian issues seem to occur even in the U.S.  I have a cousin my age that migrated from WA to Maine.  She married when she and her husband were in their late 30’s (first marriage for both), and they had a son.  After about 10 years of marriage (about 15 years ago now) they decided they would be better friends and parents if they didn’t live together.  They intentionally choose not to divorce.  After about 5 years of the arrangement they broke down and obtained a civil divorce in Maine, as my cousin said things were just too complicated otherwise.  Being “divorced” (i.e., the secular state was no longer imposing its regulations on the “business side” of their relationship) with joint custody they could arrive at mutually agreeable parenting decisions for their son and get things done that needed to be done, without always needing two signatures.  They were also able to independently manage their respective financial affairs (which was an issue in their marital difficulties).  Nobody, especially my cousin and her husband I’m thinking, would consider this an ideal arrangement.  However, given the real life circumstances they found themselves in it seems like it perhaps is a better arrangement than having the secular state impose a sometimes arbitrary “management framework” on their responsibility as parents.

I have no idea what Malta’s laws regarding marriage and families are, but nobody with expertise in that area has shown that the broad examples I’ve presented are not applicable there.
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#23
(06-01-2011, 09:51 PM)moneil Wrote: I have no idea what Malta’s laws regarding marriage and families are, but nobody with expertise in that area has shown that the broad examples I’ve presented are not applicable there.

Most of what you've written doesn't apply. Malta is not a South American country, it's in southern Europe, in the middle of the Mediterranean sea (just in case you weren't clear about that).
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#24
(06-05-2011, 06:01 AM)Melita Wrote:
(06-01-2011, 09:51 PM)moneil Wrote: I have no idea what Malta’s laws regarding marriage and families are, but nobody with expertise in that area has shown that the broad examples I’ve presented are not applicable there.

Most of what you've written doesn't apply. Malta is not a South American country, it's in southern Europe, in the middle of the Mediterranean sea (just in case you weren't clear about that).

I am well aware of where Malta is.  Nothing I wrote has anything to do with geography though, so I'm not sure you mean.  As I have already mentioned, I am not familiar with family law in Malta (but as Malta is a Mediterranean country I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't somewhat similiar to traditional family law on the Iberian peninsula).  The Iberia penisula is likewise not in South America but rather in Europe, but all South American coutries derive their legal traditions from the Iberian peninsula.

Still, no one knowledgable regarding Maltese family law has posted to explain that the potential concerns I posed were already provided for in Malta's civil code.  Likewise, no one has addressed how a society might provide for the situation of a parent (usually the mother) and family who have been abandoned by the other parent (usually the father and husband). 
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#25
(06-06-2011, 11:18 PM)moneil Wrote:
(06-05-2011, 06:01 AM)Melita Wrote:
(06-01-2011, 09:51 PM)moneil Wrote: I have no idea what Malta’s laws regarding marriage and families are, but nobody with expertise in that area has shown that the broad examples I’ve presented are not applicable there.

Most of what you've written doesn't apply. Malta is not a South American country, it's in southern Europe, in the middle of the Mediterranean sea (just in case you weren't clear about that).

I am well aware of where Malta is.  Nothing I wrote has anything to do with geography though, so I'm not sure you mean.  As I have already mentioned, I am not familiar with family law in Malta (but as Malta is a Mediterranean country I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't somewhat similiar to traditional family law on the Iberian peninsula).  The Iberia penisula is likewise not in South America but rather in Europe, but all South American coutries derive their legal traditions from the Iberian peninsula.

Still, no one knowledgable regarding Maltese family law has posted to explain that the potential concerns I posed were already provided for in Malta's civil code.  Likewise, no one has addressed how a society might provide for the situation of a parent (usually the mother) and family who have been abandoned by the other parent (usually the father and husband). 

Why don't you reseach the subject before spouting off? Maltese law has nothing to do with law on the "Iberian peninsula".
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#26
(06-06-2011, 11:18 PM)moneil Wrote: I am not familiar with family law in Malta (but as Malta is a Mediterranean country I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't somewhat similiar to traditional family law on the Iberian peninsula).  The Iberia penisula is likewise not in South America but rather in Europe, but all South American coutries derive their legal traditions from the Iberian peninsula.
 

While Malta was ruled by Spaniards before 1530, since that date it has been ruled by the Knights of Malta, the French and the British, becoming independent in 1964. As a member of the Commonwealth of Nations I would say it's probably been more influenced by Britain than by being ruled by Spaniards almost 500 years ago.

As an aside, here is the Flag of Malta:

[Image: vr9bah.jpg]

Notice the Cross in the upper left corner? That is the George Cross, the British Empire's highest civil award for bravery. It was granted to the People of Malta for their defence of the island during the 1939-45 War.

This award was made by King George VI to the Governor of Malta by letter dated 15 April 1942:

"To honour her brave people I award the George Cross to the Island Fortress of Malta to bear witness to a heroism and devotion that will long be famous in history.", (sgd) George R.I.

Lieutenant-General Sir William Dobbie answered:

"By God's help Malta will not weaken but will endure until victory is won"

May Sir William's promise be true and may Malta reclaim her Catholic roots and 'endure until victory is won'!
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#27
(06-07-2011, 01:55 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(06-06-2011, 11:18 PM)moneil Wrote: I am not familiar with family law in Malta (but as Malta is a Mediterranean country I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't somewhat similiar to traditional family law on the Iberian peninsula).  The Iberia penisula is likewise not in South America but rather in Europe, but all South American coutries derive their legal traditions from the Iberian peninsula.
 

While Malta was ruled by Spaniards before 1530, since that date it has been ruled by the Knights of Malta, the French and the British, becoming independent in 1964. As a member of the Commonwealth of Nations I would say it's probably been more influenced by Britain than by being ruled by Spaniards almost 500 years ago.

As an aside, here is the Flag of Malta:

[Image: vr9bah.jpg]

Notice the Cross in the upper left corner? That is the George Cross, the British Empire's highest civil award for bravery. It was granted to the People of Malta for their defence of the island during the 1939-45 War.

This award was made by King George VI to the Governor of Malta by letter dated 15 April 1942:

"To honour her brave people I award the George Cross to the Island Fortress of Malta to bear witness to a heroism and devotion that will long be famous in history.", (sgd) George R.I.

Lieutenant-General Sir William Dobbie answered:

"By God's help Malta will not weaken but will endure until victory is won"

May Sir William's promise be true and may Malta reclaim her Catholic roots and 'endure until victory is won'!

A well deserved award in my view. May God Bless Malta and it's People.
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#28
(06-01-2011, 01:29 AM)Vincentius Wrote: So that leaves the Vatican, East Timor and the Philippines, which have Catholics as a majority, with no divorce laws.   But I take it back...the Philippines is going to debate passing a divorce law as soon as the RH law is resolved, which will in all probability considering the secular humanist mentality that has influenced the "intellectuals" here..  The Philipppines cannot really call itself a Catholic country anymore.  That's a whole new article I am writing about. 


Please pray hard for the Philippines  :pray: . The RH Bill is now losing steam thanks to the efforts of Catholic Bishops, Politicians, Doctors, Manny Pacquiao and Catholic organizations. Support for the passage of this bill is now waning through tireless media coverage of the negative effects and contarception and its mentality to a culture that is Family oriented.  The Feminists here in our country want to push this Divorce Bill under the guise of empowerment of women. They always shout about women empowerment.  The Catholic Church here, unlike in the West, still has influence and although our bishops are not Trads they still have the balls to fight against  laws that harm the soul.  I promise you it will be a fight to the end.  Please, please keep us in your prayers.  :pray: :pray2: :pray: :pray2:

Sagrado Corazón de Jesús, ten piedad de nosotros!!!!!
Nuestra Señora de la Inmaculada Concepción, ruega por nosotros
Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe, ruega por nosotros
Santa Potenciana, ruega por nosotros
Santa Rosa de Lima, ruega por nosotros
San Lázaro, ruega por nosotros
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#29
The effect of such a deplorable decision by once-Catholic Malta is having a toll also on traditional Catholic families. Pro Tridentina (Malta) launched a call to prayer for one such family. I humbly invite you to join, pray, and where possible offer TLM for this family:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com...amily.html
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#30
(06-01-2011, 12:02 AM)CollegeCatholic Wrote:
(05-29-2011, 06:55 PM)James02 Wrote: Where is the Pope?  Who has been excommunicated?  This is a Catholic country.

Until the Lord's PRIME minister starts doing his duty, we will only degrade further.

If this were Paul VI or JPII, they'd be busy opposing Abp. Lefebvre and encouraged heresy and apostasy.

Where Benedict is, I don't know.

Benedict is not the great hammer of heresy trads like to make him out to be. Most likely Benedict, if he were still the PM, would write a statement condemning the action and the saddness it causes in the Church. I doubt you would see a sentence of excommunication. Those are only reserved for traditional Catholics.
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