Going to hell for rejecting vocation?
#41
(05-31-2011, 08:58 PM)st.dominic_savio Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:39 PM)Aragon Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:37 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:29 PM)st.dominic_savio Wrote: Well another thing that I did today was read quotes from latin fathers like St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Jerome, etc. Reading them it does seem like marriage is a sort of consolation prize.

In fact some of those saints said the only good they see in marriage is that it has the potential to produce more virgins.

Interesting.

You are not judged by what vocation you chose.  You are judged by how you fulfill it.  Do not worry about going to hell simply because you got married or became a priest.  These things in and of themselves do not amount to Heaven or Hell.  

St. Augustine had a bit of a warped view of sex. He spent so many years being a man-whore that when he converted he went from one extreme end of the spectrum to another.

Are we allowed to believe that as catholics? Because I came to the same conclusion as yourself but I feel guilty about it because St. Augustine was proably top 3 one of the most influential saints. If i start to criticize his views on sex (As the orthodox do) it starts down a slippery slope to doubting all his other views.

St. Augustine was not perfect.  He, like all in the communion of saints, has a lot to offer.  But he was not infallible.
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#42
(06-03-2011, 12:41 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel, shall save it. - Mark 8:35


I think that if you were being called to priesthood or religious life and rejected it, you would be rejecting the will of God. In my opinion you would be committing a grave sin, by not sacrificing your will for the sake of Gods will.

How can anyone know with 100% certainty what God's will is for their life?  Unless he or she is receiving some sort of inner locution, they can't.  Even that could be a deception of the enemy.

We can't even know for certain if we are in a state of grace, so why should we be able to know for certain what our vocation is?
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#43
(06-03-2011, 02:51 PM)DrBombay Wrote: How can anyone know with 100% certainty what God's will is for their life?  Unless he or she is receiving some sort of inner locution, they can't.  Even that could be a deception of the enemy.

We can't even know for certain if we are in a state of grace, so why should we be able to know for certain what our vocation is?

This! :)
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#44
I hope you will consider some of the following points.

First, a vocation does not have to be accompanied by overpowering feelings or a "sense of being called."  Vocational discernment has been overly subjectivized in contemporary times.

The objective factors are such as: Are you in debt?  Does anyone rely on you for support which you cannot give if you are in the seminary?  Do you have any mortally sinful habits which you are unable to overcome?  etc.  These are objective barriers to religious life.

If you are not prevented by any of these things, go VISIT religious communities wherein you think you may serve God well, e.g. it sounds like you are attached to the SSPX.  Go to the Seminary in Winona for a vocational visit. 

As I mentioned before, while homosexuality is certainly a problem in the priesthood, the young men at Winona are overwhelmingingly a well-adjusted heteronormal group of guys, as far as I can tell.

If you are living at home with your parents and have no job, this is one of your main problems right now.  You are in your 20s now.  You are a young man.  Get a job and move into an apartment, then earn enough money to fly to Winona or wherever else you are interested in joining. 

You should neither allow your parents to dictate to you, nor should you make your potential vocation a point of "rebellion."  You follow God's call to follow God, not annoy your parents.  But if it does annoy your parents, well, that may be necessary.

You do not need to date to find out whether you are "called" to marriage.  Find out whether or not you have a vocation to religious life first.  If you are filled with all of these conflicting emotions, you are a problem to whatever young woman you may date or even marry.  Get your own emotional house in order first.  You do not want to spend your married life wondering whether you should have become a priest.

Keep in mind that you are not going to discern fully a religious vocation in the world.  One of the reasons you go to seminary is to discern your call.  You'll find out if you don't have a vocation.  If no one will take you, you can also be sure you don't have a vocation.

The authorities give different answers on whether you can be saved if you reject your vocation and how free you are in the choice.

The answer which seems most likely to me is that if you have a vocation and reject it, you will lose many of the graces God willed to give you and your salvation will become far more difficult.  You also will likely be unhappy in this life.

Nevertheless, your animating motive in seeking out a religious life must be charity for God, not fear of hell.  Just as love draws one into marriage, love has to draw you into religious life.  This is what makes the sacrifice of celibacy possible. 
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#45
(06-03-2011, 03:14 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: I hope you will consider some of the following points.

First, a vocation does not have to be accompanied by overpowering feelings or a "sense of being called."  Vocational discernment has been overly subjectivized in contemporary times.

The objective factors are such as: Are you in debt?  Does anyone rely on you for support which you cannot give if you are in the seminary?  Do you have any mortally sinful habits which you are unable to overcome?  etc.  These are objective barriers to religious life.

If you are not prevented by any of these things, go VISIT religious communities wherein you think you may serve God well, e.g. it sounds like you are attached to the SSPX.  Go to the Seminary in Winona for a vocational visit. 

As I mentioned before, while homosexuality is certainly a problem in the priesthood, the young men at Winona are overwhelmingingly a well-adjusted heteronormal group of guys, as far as I can tell.

If you are living at home with your parents and have no job, this is one of your main problems right now.  You are in your 20s now.  You are a young man.  Get a job and move into an apartment, then earn enough money to fly to Winona or wherever else you are interested in joining. 

You should neither allow your parents to dictate to you, nor should you make your potential vocation a point of "rebellion."  You follow God's call to follow God, not annoy your parents.  But if it does annoy your parents, well, that may be necessary.

You do not need to date to find out whether you are "called" to marriage.  Find out whether or not you have a vocation to religious life first.  If you are filled with all of these conflicting emotions, you are a problem to whatever young woman you may date or even marry.  Get your own emotional house in order first.  You do not want to spend your married life wondering whether you should have become a priest.

Keep in mind that you are not going to discern fully a religious vocation in the world.  One of the reasons you go to seminary is to discern your call.  You'll find out if you don't have a vocation.  If no one will take you, you can also be sure you don't have a vocation.

The authorities give different answers on whether you can be saved if you reject your vocation and how free you are in the choice.

The answer which seems most likely to me is that if you have a vocation and reject it, you will lose many of the graces God willed to give you and your salvation will become far more difficult.  You also will likely be unhappy in this life.

Nevertheless, your animating motive in seeking out a religious life must be charity for God, not fear of hell.  Just as love draws one into marriage, love has to draw you into religious life.  This is what makes the sacrifice of celibacy possible. 

You were pretty spot on with me and I agree with almost everything you mentioned. Like I said in the post though, I just made a promise to my parents to wait 2.5 years until I am 25. I can't go back on that. Another thing that my father said that is getting under my skin is the fact that he thinks a good priest needs life experience so they can relate to fathers who are trying to make it financially. This makes me want to prove to him that I can hold down a job that hypothetically could support many children, especially since as a traditional priest I will be preaching against contraception. That way I have credibility when I preach  on these topics.

I guess a main motivator for me in all this is hell, not charity. I have been told by a lot of people on hear that I have scruples so that definetly influences how I view God and just how easy it is to be lost in today's culture. The main reason why I THINK MAYBE God is calling me to be a priest is because so many souls are being lost in today's world, particuarly because of terrible preaching by Novus Ordo priests, and also because people are living for themselves, the world, and their sexual desires instead of living for God. Obviously I am concerned about all these souls.

I was  reading the biography of St. Ignatius, who started the jesuits. Basically he was in the hospital and reading heroic romance novels and the nurse instead gave him books on the saints. He read the books, and was inspired by them, and made a conscious decision to dedicate himself to God. He didnt have an apparition or hear God talking to him, he just made a decision and went with it. This is how it MAYBE with me, I say MAYBE because I still dont know.

So like I said, I guess I just gotta try to make it the next 2.5 years. The main struggle will be that I will become lonely, which will in turn look for women to date, which will in turn possibly lead to love/marriage thus invalidating the priesthood option. This is exactly why I perhaps wanted to examine the priesthood option first just so I could know in my heart one way or the other.

Do you think this 2.5 year deadline I gave my parents out of respect for their wishes was acceptable?
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#46
If God is calling you at 22, he'll still be calling at 25.
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#47
(06-03-2011, 03:26 PM)st.dominic_savio Wrote:
(06-03-2011, 03:14 PM)Christus Imperat Wrote: I hope you will consider some of the following points.

First, a vocation does not have to be accompanied by overpowering feelings or a "sense of being called."  Vocational discernment has been overly subjectivized in contemporary times.

The objective factors are such as: Are you in debt?  Does anyone rely on you for support which you cannot give if you are in the seminary?  Do you have any mortally sinful habits which you are unable to overcome?  etc.  These are objective barriers to religious life.

If you are not prevented by any of these things, go VISIT religious communities wherein you think you may serve God well, e.g. it sounds like you are attached to the SSPX.  Go to the Seminary in Winona for a vocational visit. 

As I mentioned before, while homosexuality is certainly a problem in the priesthood, the young men at Winona are overwhelmingingly a well-adjusted heteronormal group of guys, as far as I can tell.

If you are living at home with your parents and have no job, this is one of your main problems right now.  You are in your 20s now.  You are a young man.  Get a job and move into an apartment, then earn enough money to fly to Winona or wherever else you are interested in joining. 

You should neither allow your parents to dictate to you, nor should you make your potential vocation a point of "rebellion."  You follow God's call to follow God, not annoy your parents.  But if it does annoy your parents, well, that may be necessary.

You do not need to date to find out whether you are "called" to marriage.  Find out whether or not you have a vocation to religious life first.  If you are filled with all of these conflicting emotions, you are a problem to whatever young woman you may date or even marry.  Get your own emotional house in order first.  You do not want to spend your married life wondering whether you should have become a priest.

Keep in mind that you are not going to discern fully a religious vocation in the world.  One of the reasons you go to seminary is to discern your call.  You'll find out if you don't have a vocation.  If no one will take you, you can also be sure you don't have a vocation.

The authorities give different answers on whether you can be saved if you reject your vocation and how free you are in the choice.

The answer which seems most likely to me is that if you have a vocation and reject it, you will lose many of the graces God willed to give you and your salvation will become far more difficult.  You also will likely be unhappy in this life.

Nevertheless, your animating motive in seeking out a religious life must be charity for God, not fear of hell.  Just as love draws one into marriage, love has to draw you into religious life.  This is what makes the sacrifice of celibacy possible. 

You were pretty spot on with me and I agree with almost everything you mentioned. Like I said in the post though, I just made a promise to my parents to wait 2.5 years until I am 25. I can't go back on that. Another thing that my father said that is getting under my skin is the fact that he thinks a good priest needs life experience so they can relate to fathers who are trying to make it financially. This makes me want to prove to him that I can hold down a job that hypothetically could support many children, especially since as a traditional priest I will be preaching against contraception. That way I have credibility when I preach  on these topics.

I guess a main motivator for me in all this is hell, not charity. I have been told by a lot of people on hear that I have scruples so that definetly influences how I view God and just how easy it is to be lost in today's culture. The main reason why I THINK MAYBE God is calling me to be a priest is because so many souls are being lost in today's world, particuarly because of terrible preaching by Novus Ordo priests, and also because people are living for themselves, the world, and their sexual desires instead of living for God. Obviously I am concerned about all these souls.

I was  reading the biography of St. Ignatius, who started the jesuits. Basically he was in the hospital and reading heroic romance novels and the nurse instead gave him books on the saints. He read the books, and was inspired by them, and made a conscious decision to dedicate himself to God. He didnt have an apparition or hear God talking to him, he just made a decision and went with it. This is how it MAYBE with me, I say MAYBE because I still dont know.

So like I said, I guess I just gotta try to make it the next 2.5 years. The main struggle will be that I will become lonely, which will in turn look for women to date, which will in turn possibly lead to love/marriage thus invalidating the priesthood option. This is exactly why I perhaps wanted to examine the priesthood option first just so I could know in my heart one way or the other.

Do you think this 2.5 year deadline I gave my parents out of respect for their wishes was acceptable?

It depends on what you do with those 2.5 years.  Try to start earning some money.  If you are in debt now, you need to pay off as much of your debts as possible before entering seminary.  Also, you don't want to have to ask your parents for money for seminary or vocational visits, as this will give them ammunition for criticizing you.   

If you can find a spiritual director, that would be very helpful, though it is extremely difficult to do so now.

Your motives for thinking about religious life, e.g. salvation of souls, seem admirable enough to me.

Even if you don't enter religious life for the next two-and-a-half years, you may still visit places.  Within the SSPX orbit, you could also consider visiting the Benedictines of New Mexico, if you think you have a different kind of vocation.  Several Benedictines are at Winona, so if you did go there, you would have the opportunity to ask them about discerning with them.

If you do have involvement with young women, make sure they are good moral Catholics.  An immoral young woman may help lead you away from your vocation and into hell very fast.

Just my private non-authoritative thoughts.  You can PM me sometime if you wish.
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#48
(06-03-2011, 12:29 PM)Pheo Wrote: Wulfrano, why continue to post on FE if you're just going to wantonly flaunt the rules?
Quote:When speaking about the current Holy Father or any previous Pope, he will be spoken of respectfully. He may be referred to using his proper titles, e.g., The Holy Father, or his Papal name, e.g., in the case of the current Pontiff, Benedict XVI or Benedict.

No mention of newpope or whatever else you came up with there.  Might want to think about editing your post.

You are right.  I apologize.  I have edited the post.  It now reads Benedict XVI.  The rest of the text is not mine.  It is copied from a news agency.  As to Newpope, the news agency was referring, I suppose, to a Holy Pope who celebrates the NOVUS ORDO MASS (NEW Order Mass).
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#49
(06-03-2011, 02:34 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:58 PM)st.dominic_savio Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:39 PM)Aragon Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:37 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:29 PM)st.dominic_savio Wrote: Well another thing that I did today was read quotes from latin fathers like St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Jerome, etc. Reading them it does seem like marriage is a sort of consolation prize.

In fact some of those saints said the only good they see in marriage is that it has the potential to produce more virgins.



Interesting.

You are not judged by what vocation you chose.  You are judged by how you fulfill it.  Do not worry about going to hell simply because you got married or became a priest.  These things in and of themselves do not amount to Heaven or Hell.  

St. Augustine had a bit of a warped view of sex. He spent so many years being a man-whore that when he converted he went from one extreme end of the spectrum to another.

Are we allowed to believe that as catholics? Because I came to the same conclusion as yourself but I feel guilty about it because St. Augustine was proably top 3 one of the most influential saints. If i start to criticize his views on sex (As the orthodox do) it starts down a slippery slope to doubting all his other views.

St. Augustine was not perfect.  He, like all in the communion of saints, has a lot to offer.  But he was not infallible.


I can't believe this lack of respect for a great holy saint who is already high up in Heaven, coming from some people who might not even make it to Purgatory!  Saint Agustin, dear friend and brother in the Lord, please pray for us sinners who think we know something and know nothing!  Thank you dear saint!
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#50
(06-03-2011, 07:02 PM)wulfrano Wrote:
(06-03-2011, 02:34 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:58 PM)st.dominic_savio Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:39 PM)Aragon Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:37 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(05-31-2011, 08:29 PM)st.dominic_savio Wrote: Well another thing that I did today was read quotes from latin fathers like St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Jerome, etc. Reading them it does seem like marriage is a sort of consolation prize.

In fact some of those saints said the only good they see in marriage is that it has the potential to produce more virgins.



Interesting.

You are not judged by what vocation you chose.  You are judged by how you fulfill it.  Do not worry about going to hell simply because you got married or became a priest.  These things in and of themselves do not amount to Heaven or Hell.  

St. Augustine had a bit of a warped view of sex. He spent so many years being a man-whore that when he converted he went from one extreme end of the spectrum to another.

Are we allowed to believe that as catholics? Because I came to the same conclusion as yourself but I feel guilty about it because St. Augustine was proably top 3 one of the most influential saints. If i start to criticize his views on sex (As the orthodox do) it starts down a slippery slope to doubting all his other views.

St. Augustine was not perfect.  He, like all in the communion of saints, has a lot to offer.  But he was not infallible.


I can't believe this lack of respect for a great holy saint who is already high up in Heaven, coming from some people who might not even make it to Purgatory!  Saint Agustin, dear friend and brother in the Lord, please pray for us sinners who think we know something and know nothing!  Thank you dear saint!

I think St Augustine would be more concerned with a person who argued him to be infallible than one who pointed out (and this pov is consistent with Church teaching) that he isn't.  St Augustine was a critical thinker.  Far be it from me to presume to know the mind of a Doctor of the Church but I think he would appreciate the objective and true statement that WRC has made.

Yes, St Augustine pray for us.
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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
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