What's good about the Novus Ordo Mass?
#21
(06-07-2011, 10:56 PM)3Sanctus Wrote:
(06-07-2011, 10:41 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: And this is just my opinion, but I believe if the Church had authorized the missionaries of the 17th century to offer at least portions of the Mass in Chinese, China today would be far more Christianized than it is now.

An American-born friend of mine from a Spanish (not Latin American) family who is very familiar with Chinese culture and has spent time in China points to the disallowing of "ancestor worship" as the cause of the sort of abysmal failure we see in the history of Catholicism in China.  He also points out that apparently Pius XII said the views against it were misguided and pointed out that "ancestor worship" is quite similar to the veneration of the saints.  While the veneration of certain ancestors may be misguided, the practice itself isn't entirely evil.

I'm more with the Franciscans than the Jesuits with regard to the Chinese Rites Controversy. I don't see how Confucian practices of ancestor worship are compatible with the true faith. I mean, if they were merely civic rituals like the way Americans (including Catholics) honor the flag or the tomb of the Unknown Soldier by ritual actions I guess that would be fine. But the Confucian practices definitely seem to me more religious than purely civic.
Reply
#22
(06-07-2011, 11:26 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(06-07-2011, 11:20 PM)Norbert Wrote: Could you elaborate?  As far as i'm concerned, not only is "syncretism" the origin of many of the heresies of the historical church, but it's the chief blasphemy of NO-ville.

I could be wrong though, and I think we're using different definitions.

I mean it in the sense of baptizing and Christianizing old ideas. The early medieval Church would have never converted the barbarians of Europe wholesale if there wasn't at least a little bit of this going on. Rededicating fountains of old pagan gods to saints, converting old temples into churches, etc.

The medieval Church profited also from the indispensable help of the secular arm, something inexistent today.
Reply
#23
(06-08-2011, 10:52 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-07-2011, 11:26 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(06-07-2011, 11:20 PM)Norbert Wrote: Could you elaborate?  As far as i'm concerned, not only is "syncretism" the origin of many of the heresies of the historical church, but it's the chief blasphemy of NO-ville.

I could be wrong though, and I think we're using different definitions.

I mean it in the sense of baptizing and Christianizing old ideas. The early medieval Church would have never converted the barbarians of Europe wholesale if there wasn't at least a little bit of this going on. Rededicating fountains of old pagan gods to saints, converting old temples into churches, etc.

The medieval Church profited also from the indispensable help of the secular arm, something inexistent today.

I think it's likely that the State will become more favorable to the Church any time soon. I'd actually say that the modern State is one of the Church's worst enemies. If anything, we need to decrease its power all around.
Reply
#24
(06-08-2011, 11:00 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(06-08-2011, 10:52 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-07-2011, 11:26 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(06-07-2011, 11:20 PM)Norbert Wrote: Could you elaborate?  As far as i'm concerned, not only is "syncretism" the origin of many of the heresies of the historical church, but it's the chief blasphemy of NO-ville.

I could be wrong though, and I think we're using different definitions.

I mean it in the sense of baptizing and Christianizing old ideas. The early medieval Church would have never converted the barbarians of Europe wholesale if there wasn't at least a little bit of this going on. Rededicating fountains of old pagan gods to saints, converting old temples into churches, etc.

The medieval Church profited also from the indispensable help of the secular arm, something inexistent today.

I think it's likely that the State will become more favorable to the Church any time soon. I'd actually say that the modern State is one of the Church's worst enemies. If anything, we need to decrease its power all around.

Once the Church recovers her senses, new missioning efforts must take place to make the state profess the true religion.
Reply
#25
(06-08-2011, 11:04 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-08-2011, 11:00 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(06-08-2011, 10:52 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-07-2011, 11:26 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(06-07-2011, 11:20 PM)Norbert Wrote: Could you elaborate?  As far as i'm concerned, not only is "syncretism" the origin of many of the heresies of the historical church, but it's the chief blasphemy of NO-ville.

I could be wrong though, and I think we're using different definitions.

I mean it in the sense of baptizing and Christianizing old ideas. The early medieval Church would have never converted the barbarians of Europe wholesale if there wasn't at least a little bit of this going on. Rededicating fountains of old pagan gods to saints, converting old temples into churches, etc.

The medieval Church profited also from the indispensable help of the secular arm, something inexistent today.

I think it's likely that the State will become more favorable to the Church any time soon. I'd actually say that the modern State is one of the Church's worst enemies. If anything, we need to decrease its power all around.

Once the Church recovers her senses, new missioning efforts must take place to make the state profess the true religion.

Obviously society at all levels needs to profess and support the true faith, but from a practical point of view, I don't see any more confessional states popping up. If that's what you're into, you should probably work to make sure the ones that still exist (like Malta) stay that way.
Reply
#26
(06-08-2011, 11:10 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(06-08-2011, 11:04 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-08-2011, 11:00 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(06-08-2011, 10:52 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-07-2011, 11:26 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(06-07-2011, 11:20 PM)Norbert Wrote: Could you elaborate?  As far as i'm concerned, not only is "syncretism" the origin of many of the heresies of the historical church, but it's the chief blasphemy of NO-ville.

I could be wrong though, and I think we're using different definitions.

I mean it in the sense of baptizing and Christianizing old ideas. The early medieval Church would have never converted the barbarians of Europe wholesale if there wasn't at least a little bit of this going on. Rededicating fountains of old pagan gods to saints, converting old temples into churches, etc.

The medieval Church profited also from the indispensable help of the secular arm, something inexistent today.

I think it's likely that the State will become more favorable to the Church any time soon. I'd actually say that the modern State is one of the Church's worst enemies. If anything, we need to decrease its power all around.

Once the Church recovers her senses, new missioning efforts must take place to make the state profess the true religion.

Obviously society at all levels needs to profess and support the true faith, but from a practical point of view, I don't see any more confessional states popping up. If that's what you're into, you should probably work to make sure the ones that still exist (like Malta) stay that way. I

You are correct, but only in so far as the Bishops reject the Social Kingship of Christ in the present status quo.  Countries like Hungary are attempting to preserve the faith with very little help at all from the Church, if Churchmen actually promote Our Lord's reign again, it is not all that complicated. 

The majority of people in a country need to be converted to the true faith and if true Catholics become legislators and leaders of a nation, they introduce Catholic legislation.  If the nation's Bishops consecrate the country, together with willing political leaders, to the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts, good things cannot be far behind.

Many Europeans I think would be willing to turn to the Church, partly out of necessity, but the Church needs to sound the battle cry against Islamism, abortion, immorality of all kinds and especially sodomy, Judaism, EU tyranny, etc.  The Scripture says that if the trumpet sounds a confused note, who will respond to the call to arms?  That is the problem today.
Reply
#27
(06-08-2011, 11:10 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: Obviously society at all levels needs to profess and support the true faith, but from a practical point of view, I don't see any more confessional states popping up. If that's what you're into, you should probably work to make sure the ones that still exist (like Malta) stay that way.

They're certainly not going to "pop up" if the Church herself rejects her own teachings.

But have hope: things will change, hopefully within our own lifetimes.
Reply
#28
(06-08-2011, 11:20 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-08-2011, 11:10 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: Obviously society at all levels needs to profess and support the true faith, but from a practical point of view, I don't see any more confessional states popping up. If that's what you're into, you should probably work to make sure the ones that still exist (like Malta) stay that way.

They're certainly not going to "pop up" if the Church herself rejects her own teachings.

But have hope: things will change, hopefully within our own lifetimes.

The optimistic Vetus!  :w2go:  I like it.
Reply
#29
(06-08-2011, 11:20 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-08-2011, 11:10 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: Obviously society at all levels needs to profess and support the true faith, but from a practical point of view, I don't see any more confessional states popping up. If that's what you're into, you should probably work to make sure the ones that still exist (like Malta) stay that way.

They're certainly not going to "pop up" if the Church herself rejects her own teachings.

I don't think the Church does or even can reject her own teachings.
Reply
#30
(06-08-2011, 11:24 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(06-08-2011, 11:20 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(06-08-2011, 11:10 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: Obviously society at all levels needs to profess and support the true faith, but from a practical point of view, I don't see any more confessional states popping up. If that's what you're into, you should probably work to make sure the ones that still exist (like Malta) stay that way.

They're certainly not going to "pop up" if the Church herself rejects her own teachings.

I don't think the Church does or even can reject her own teachings.

He means Churchmen.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)