Why the Mass in Latin?
#50
(06-15-2011, 02:11 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(06-15-2011, 01:51 AM)Melkite Wrote: In Greek, the filioque means the Holy Spirit is proceeding from two sources. 

The Council of Florence, in both the Greek text and the Latin text, made it clear that "[The Holy Spirit] proceeds from both [the Father and the Son] eternally as from one principle and one spiration" (Denzinger 691).

Are you able to read the whole Greek text of what you posted?  I don't know Greek, so I can't.  Ultimately, in Greek, and in English, the filioque is best expressed by saying through the Son, not from the Son.  From the Son is heretical in Greek and English in a way that it is not in Latin.  What would have been heretical would be if the Latin were to say ex Filio rather than filioque.  Filioque implies that the Spirit's procession from the Son is subordinate to his procession from the Father.

(06-15-2011, 02:11 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(06-15-2011, 01:51 AM)Melkite Wrote: Further, they would have signed anything because they were under Byzantine imperial pressure to gain military help from the West against the Islamic onslaught. 

And you imagine that there was no imperial pressure at Nicaea, Ephesus, or Chalcedon?

At the first 7 ecumenical councils, the military force was in Constantinople, so the Byzantines would not have needed to supplicate a foreign power because of their own military weakness as they did in Florence.  The circumstances are entirely different.

(06-15-2011, 02:11 AM)Resurrexi Wrote:
(06-15-2011, 01:51 AM)Melkite Wrote: Ultimately, though, the end remains the same.  We are fully Catholic as we are, therefore nothing you can give us can make us more Catholic than we already are.  Any and all Latinizations are completely unnecessary, unhelpful and, most importantly, uncharitable.

The addition of the Filioque better expresses Catholic dogma that its omission.

It better expresses it in Latin.  But, there is nothing in the Creed about the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, the Assumption, etc., etc.  The Creed without the Filioque perfectly expresses fundamental Catholic dogma.  As Rosarium said, it doesn't have to express every last detail of defined Catholic doctrine.

(06-15-2011, 06:14 AM)K3vinhood Wrote:
(06-15-2011, 01:51 AM)Melkite Wrote: St. Augustine whored himself out for a large portion of his life, and was a heretical Manichaen after that.  Certainly you don't accept him as a saint who was a bad example for most of his life while rejecting St. Photios for the same thing?  It doesn't matter how they lived their lives, if they reconciled with God and the Church and died in a state of grace, they are saints.

St. Augustine and Photius' situations are not similar at all. Augustine clearly converted from his sinful past and became a saintly man.
Even if Photius died in communion with the church, there's nothing which points to the fact that he reconciled with God and the Church. Just because there is a possibility doesn't mean he should be venerated in my opinion.  :shrug:

As for Palamas, he was anti-Latin and did not reconcile with the church in any way that I know of either.

Listen to what you just said.  "Even if Photios died in communion with the Church, there's nothing which points to the fact that he reconciled with God and the Church."  How can you be in communion with the Church and not reconciled to her?  You're either in the Church or you're not, there's no middle ground.  Isn't that what people here like to say?

(06-15-2011, 07:00 AM)Someone1776 Wrote: I don't see where this trad vs Eastern Catholic debate is getting us. Both trads and Eastern Catholics have received shabby treatment in the past. Why do we want to beat each other up while church liberals laugh? 

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but you made a false dichotomy.  Latins don't have a monopoly on traditionalism.  Most Eastern Catholics are trads.  Except for the Ruthenians (j/k).  In fact, if the Consecration of Russia ever takes place, there would be, overnight, exponentially more trad Catholics of the Byzantine rite than there are currently in the Roman rite.  The Byzantine rite is inherently traditional.
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Messages In This Thread
Why the Mass in Latin? - by Petertherock - 06-12-2011, 08:45 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Maldon - 06-12-2011, 10:04 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by LausTibiChriste - 06-12-2011, 10:21 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by The Curt Jester - 06-12-2011, 10:25 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-13-2011, 12:39 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Stubborn - 06-13-2011, 12:49 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by CrusaderKing - 06-13-2011, 01:18 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-13-2011, 03:41 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by jovan66102 - 06-13-2011, 04:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-14-2011, 01:32 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by GottmitunsAlex - 06-14-2011, 01:36 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 07:08 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 07:12 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Aragon - 06-14-2011, 08:43 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-14-2011, 09:38 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-14-2011, 11:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-14-2011, 12:04 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-14-2011, 12:11 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by jovan66102 - 06-14-2011, 12:23 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-14-2011, 03:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-14-2011, 03:45 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Scipio_a - 06-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:49 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:53 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 09:56 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 10:00 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-14-2011, 10:02 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 10:09 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-14-2011, 10:24 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-14-2011, 10:32 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-14-2011, 10:54 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-14-2011, 11:36 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-15-2011, 12:47 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 01:51 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-15-2011, 02:11 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by mikemac - 06-15-2011, 03:34 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 06:14 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-15-2011, 07:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 08:47 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-15-2011, 08:51 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 08:56 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-15-2011, 08:57 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:06 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:10 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:16 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:31 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-15-2011, 09:35 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 09:38 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-15-2011, 07:12 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by salus - 06-15-2011, 07:13 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-15-2011, 07:14 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Historian - 06-15-2011, 07:54 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 01:43 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 02:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 02:28 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 02:44 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 02:46 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 02:54 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 03:02 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 03:04 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 03:09 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 03:18 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 03:24 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 10:50 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 10:55 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 11:00 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 11:34 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 11:54 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 12:27 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 12:42 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 01:07 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 01:47 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 01:57 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 02:01 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 06:25 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 06:44 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-16-2011, 06:50 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-16-2011, 07:07 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-16-2011, 09:43 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-16-2011, 09:46 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by K3vinhood - 06-16-2011, 09:51 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Marc - 06-17-2011, 12:23 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-17-2011, 12:28 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 12:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Resurrexi - 06-17-2011, 12:44 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Unum Sint - 06-17-2011, 12:50 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 06:33 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 06:57 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:46 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 11:09 AM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 12:34 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 03:44 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:30 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Someone1776 - 06-17-2011, 08:40 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by devotedknuckles - 06-17-2011, 08:41 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Melkite - 06-17-2011, 08:56 PM
Re: Why the Mass in Latin? - by Vetus Ordo - 06-17-2011, 11:15 PM



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